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Cribbage's Standardised Test Averages (UPDATED November 2018 - posts 753-755)

vcs

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I thought that Statsguru article about Imran had well and truly demolished the myth about him not excelling at both aspects at the same time in his career. Check out his batting and bowling stats between 1980 and 1988. I think 37+ with the bat and 18 with the ball. If that isn't "genuine allrounder" stuff, I don't know what is.
 

vcs

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The difference being Miller performed with both bat and ball throughout his career. Miller was one of the greatest fast bowlers of his time and a genuine middle order bat - #5 for the Invincibles. Imran on the other hand became a better batsman as he bowled less and didn't really have a career with superlative performances with both disciplines. In the end Imran made himself a fine all-round player but didn't carry the burden the likes of Botham or Miller had.

Faulker is a more interesting one. He is a player I don't know much about but looks like he could be the greatest of them all.
Imran between 1980-88:

Tests 48
Runs 2028
Average 39.76
100s/ 50s 4/10
Wickets 236
Average 17.77
5WI/ 10WM 18/5
 
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smalishah84

The Tiger King
I thought that Statsguru article about Imran had well and truly demolished the myth about him not excelling at both aspects at the same time in his career. Check out his batting and bowling stats between 1980 and 1988. I think 37+ with the bat and 18 with the ball. If that isn't "genuine allrounder" stuff, I don't know what is.
True that. Add to that his captaincy for the PAKISTAN team. One of the toughest jobs in world cricket.

The thing that stood out for me in that article

48 Matches 236 wickets Avg 17.77 and SR a phenomenal 43.6 (even better than Waqar's career SR IIRC). And he led everyone in these figures Hadlee, Marshall, Garner, Holding, and Lillee.

Add to that a batting average of 37+ and you have probably the most rounded of all rounders ever.

He was the spearhead of the attack for a long time.

Ikki he probably carried the burden better than Miller and Botham (at least for a longer period of time)
 
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Dissector

International Debutant
One important fact about Miller; though he has an excellent bowling average he took only 170 wickets in 55 tests, little more than 3 wickets per test which is not acceptable for a front-line bowler. So even aside from the captaincy issue it's ridiculous to say he carried a bigger burden than Imran.
 

smalishah84

The Tiger King
One important fact about Miller; though he has an excellent bowling average he took only 170 wickets in 55 tests, little more than 3 wickets per test which is not acceptable for a front-line bowler. So even aside from the captaincy issue it's ridiculous to say he carried a bigger burden than Imran.
What???? Are you for real???? He only took 170 wickets in 55 tests???? I didn't know that. You just made Miller a lesser all rounder in my book.
 

vcs

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I had noticed Miller's low WPM when I took a cursory look at his career stats but you probably have to have lived through the era to judge him based on that.
 

smalishah84

The Tiger King
I had noticed Miller's low WPM when I took a cursory look at his career stats but you probably have to have lived through the era to judge him based on that.
True that. After all even Gary Sobers had a terrible wpm IIRC. So he stands tall once again :)....by all accounts though he was a very good bowler. So it must be that wpm in that era must be really low.
 

smalishah84

The Tiger King
So how come you don't also mark Imran down for low runs per match then?
Because Imran did not get to bat in a lot of matches. And there were better batsmen in the Pakistan team and a lot of times the tail got out and he stood not out. Was it that Miller did not get to bowl too often?? Was he not that good a bowler???.Were there many better bowlers than Miller at that time in the Aussie team???

It has to be seen in context as vcs points out.
 

Himannv

International Captain
I dont see how anyone could say that Imran didn't carry a burden. I mean, look at the state of the Pakistan team now. They badly need a captain/player like him right now. Looking back, the burden that Imran carried for the team is priceless.
 

smalishah84

The Tiger King
I dont see how anyone could say that Imran didn't carry a burden. I mean, look at the state of the Pakistan team now. They badly need a captain/player like him right now. Looking back, the burden that Imran carried for the team is priceless.
Well said.
 

Dissector

International Debutant
I had noticed Miller's low WPM when I took a cursory look at his career stats but you probably have to have lived through the era to judge him based on that.
For averages that's true but I don't think this applies so much to wickets per match. Whichever era you are talking about you need to be able to take 20 wickets to win a game and if one of your key bowlers takes only 3 wickets per test you will struggle to do so. In any case whichever era you are talking about, 3 wickets per test is unusually low for a top-class bowler.;
 

smalishah84

The Tiger King
For averages that's true but I don't think this applies so much to wickets per match. Whichever era you are talking about you need to be able to take 20 wickets to win a game and if one of your key bowlers takes only 3 wickets per test you will struggle to do so. In any case whichever era you are talking about, 3 wickets per test is unusually low for a top-class bowler.;
makes some sense. But what about all the drawn games in those eras, and there were plenty of those back then??? I guess not too many teams were taking 20 wickets in those days.

Not too sure about your last line.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Ikki what do you mean he didn't carry the burden? He was the main strike bowler for his team and more than a useful bat. He probably was a better bowler than Miller too.

you might want to check this out.

Stats analysis: Imran Khan | Specials | Cricinfo Magazine | Cricinfo.com

Imran was one of the best in the 1980s. In fact just check out his average and SR for 1980-88.
What I mean is, he wasn't really relied on as much to win matches with the bat. It was just something he was pretty good at and he only became comparable to Botham/Miller with the bat towards the end of his career where he at that point bowled less.

He was definitely a better bowler than Miller.

Imran between 1980-88:

Tests 48
Runs 2028
Average 39.76
100s/ 50s 4/10
Wickets 236
Average 17.77
5WI/ 10WM 18/5
There is even a point where Imran averages 50; but let's be real. He batted far down the order and he looks better with the bat than he really is because of not-outs. He's not comparable to Botham and Miller in terms of skill with the bat - just look at the # of 50s and 100s. Miller has 1 more 100 and only 5 less 50s despite playing 33 less matches. You're comparing someone who batted low down the order and who was hard to get out with genuine middle-order batsmen.

For half his career, Miller was averaging 45 with the bat and 22 with the ball IIRC. Also, Miller was generally care-free with his game which reflected his attitude towards life post-World War. For example:

At Southend in 1948, as the Australians scored a world record 721 runs in a single day against Essex, Miller, coming in to bat when the score was 2/364, allowed himself to be bowled first ball.[4] Indeed, he "turned to the wicketkeeper and said: "Thank God that's over".
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I had noticed Miller's low WPM when I took a cursory look at his career stats but you probably have to have lived through the era to judge him based on that.
Miller suffered back injuries in the war IIRC as he had a plane crash and in wrestling. When called to he could bowl long spells but he generally didn't. He was bowled in short spurts. His average and SR for his era is up there with the best; he just couldn't sustain it long enough on a regular basis to take more than 3 wickets per match.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
SJS has made some good points on this subject.


I am not so sure its that close unless you look at nothing beyond career batting averages.

Centuries:
Botham has 14 test centuries in 102 games (161 innings)
while Imran has 6 in 88 (126 innings)
Thats a century every 7.3 Tests against one every 14.7.

Botham's 11.5 innings per century is comparable to pure batsmen like
  • Denness (11.2),
  • Gower (11.3),
  • Dexter (11.3),
  • O'Neill(11.5),
  • Kepler Wessels(11.8)

while Imran's frequency of a hundred every 21 innings puts him with all bowling all rounders and lesser batsmen like
  • Brian McMillan (20.7),
  • Chris Cairns(20.8),
  • Grant Flower (20.5),
  • John Parker (21)
  • Kapil Dev (23) etc.

Dominating a series as a batsman:

Botham's's top runs in a series are
  1. 1981-81 : In India : 440 runs - Was second in series average just behind Gooch at 487. Gower, Boycott and Gatting well behind him.
  2. 1982 : India in Englad : 440 runs - leading run scorer for England in the series. Next was Randall with almost half as many runs at 221
  3. 1981 : Ashes at Home : 399 - Was leading run getter in the series with Boycott, Gower, Gatting, Gooch behind him.
  4. 1984 : West Indies at Home : 347 - Was second behind Lamb (386) with Gower, Gatting, Tavare and Chris Broad behind him.

Imran crossed 300 in a series only once
  1. 1986-87: India in India : 324 - Was second after Rameez Raja (386) with Miandad(302), Rizwan-uz-Zaman and Shoaib Mohammad after him.

Batting Order in Tests Played
Code:
[B]Player	  6 & above	7 & below[/B]
Botham     	71%	29%
Imran        	22%	78%

You know the problem when making all time sides is which part of a player's career are you taking. People tend to take what is convenient for them. Imran was a devastating bowler for the first part of his career (barring the very early bit) and a useful lower order batsman. Towards the latter part of his career his bowling declined but he started batting more cautiously and as captain took some charge of the lower middle order. Thus when people chose Imran as an all time great all rounder one has to take it with a pinch of salt for we tend to take his career ending figures and then 'spread' them evenly across his entire career although this wasn't how his career panned out.

I think if Imran is to be assessed at his best (as it should be for all greats) then his greatest period as a cricketer was when he was at his peak as a bowler because once his bowling declined he remained a very good cricketer but wasn't a 'great' one any more.

Botham on the other hand, during the first half of his career was a world class all rounder - a devastating batsman and a wonderful new ball bowler and one of the finest all round fielders we have seen. Its rare to see such a period (of great batting and bowling skills) coincide amongst most all rounders. Even Miller's batting flowered later although even in his best bowling times he was a much better batsman than Imran was during his peak as a bowler.

Same with Wilfred Rhodes and even to an extent with Faulkner.

Another misconception people have about Botham is on account of his speed of scoring and his six hitting. I am amazed that this causes people to consider him a 'slogger' for Botham had one of the best techniques you could imagine. His grip, stance and stroke play were almost copybook its just that he was a very aggressive stroke player and his driving was devastatingly powerful. If it did not come so easily to him and if he took it a bit more seriously one would have seen him make massive scores for he was an amazing batsman at his peak. Imagine Sehwag, add both inches and muscle to him and make him play even straighter and off both feet and you get Botham.

Just look at his feet and head position, the follow through and the balance in each of these photographs.
Backfoot drive


Hook : keeping it down


Hook for six


Inside out drive


Off Drive


On Drive


Hook from off stump


Square Cut


These are the strokes of a top order batsman. He just happened to score very fast and was flamboyant in his attitude and would probably laugh after getting out and made more enemies than friends.
 

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