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3rd Greatest Cricketer - The Poll
- Thread starter Engle
- Start date
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
Talking about Warne, (and digressing a bit from the topic) I love this ball he bowled to dismiss Ganguly (who was a fantastic player of spin bowling himself).
YouTube - Shane Warne Makes Sourav Ganguly Look Foolish
Warne keeps this wrong-un much shorter than usual to tempt Ganguly to come forward (which he loved to do so often). More importantly, if the batsman didn't read the ball from Warne's hand, there's no way he could read it from where it pitched on this occasion. It would have been a perfect line for a normal legspin. Warne does a smart job here in spite of the fact that his wrong-uns didn't spin much. Richie Benaud the commentator, a great legspinner himself, enjoys this. Nice intelligent spin bowling.
YouTube - Shane Warne Makes Sourav Ganguly Look Foolish
Warne keeps this wrong-un much shorter than usual to tempt Ganguly to come forward (which he loved to do so often). More importantly, if the batsman didn't read the ball from Warne's hand, there's no way he could read it from where it pitched on this occasion. It would have been a perfect line for a normal legspin. Warne does a smart job here in spite of the fact that his wrong-uns didn't spin much. Richie Benaud the commentator, a great legspinner himself, enjoys this. Nice intelligent spin bowling.
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Contra
Cricketer Of The Year
To be fair the ball barely bounced so he had absolutely no chance of defending it after realizing the shot wasn't on. Still a good piece of bowling though.
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
However, (again digressing from the topic) I feel that both Warne and Grimmett were slightly better bowlers than their overall bowling averages suggest, respectively.
Warne, because I saw him playing so many times that I know. Grimmett, because I've read so much about him (and so much written by him) that I know he was a master of legspin bowling. The way he used legspin and googly and the way he used flight were all so planned and well thought-out that I was moved when I read him first. The way he worked out the weaknesses of different batsmen was amazing. And the stories about his practice sessions are so astonishing (the dog story and the coin story comes to mind). He invented flipper and quite a few variations of flipper. The best part about Grimmett's (and O'Reilly's) usage of the googly was that their googlies generally pitched on the same spot where their legspinners pitched. So, if a batsman couldn't read the ball from their hands, there was no chance that they could read from the trajectory. Nowadays, there are so many spinners whose legspinners would pitch on the leg stump and their googlies would pitch outside the off...makes it so easy for the batsman from the trajectory itself. I love how Grimmett taught Ashley Mallett the importance of flight through the example of the bridge and the manhole. Grimmett was devastating against the technically weak batsmen, mainly because of his different variations of flipper. No wonder that some people hold his record against SA and WI and weak FA sides (10/37 comes to mind) against his all-time greatness. However, he used less of flipper and more of his stock ball and wrong-un against better batsmen. Grimmett probably had more influence on the upcoming legspinners than O'Reilly himself, primarily because of his scientific approach and extremely intelligent way to analyse the game as a bowler. No wonder that Ashley Mallett called him the Bradman of Spin. Grimmett is one of the two players who took more than 100 wickets debuting after the age of 30, and still the only one to take more than 200 among such players. At last, he was dropped from the test side at the age of 44 after a series where he was the most successful bowler by far (it must be known that he wasn't the best of friends with Bradman). He continued to be extremely successful in FA arena. He was a man with supreme ego, and as the story goes, when he was recalled in the test side a year later, he declined the offer. He could be the first player to cross 300 wickets too if he wished, who knows? The writings about Grimmett, and the writings by him, are probably the best literature one can find about spin bowling.
Warne, because I saw him playing so many times that I know. Grimmett, because I've read so much about him (and so much written by him) that I know he was a master of legspin bowling. The way he used legspin and googly and the way he used flight were all so planned and well thought-out that I was moved when I read him first. The way he worked out the weaknesses of different batsmen was amazing. And the stories about his practice sessions are so astonishing (the dog story and the coin story comes to mind). He invented flipper and quite a few variations of flipper. The best part about Grimmett's (and O'Reilly's) usage of the googly was that their googlies generally pitched on the same spot where their legspinners pitched. So, if a batsman couldn't read the ball from their hands, there was no chance that they could read from the trajectory. Nowadays, there are so many spinners whose legspinners would pitch on the leg stump and their googlies would pitch outside the off...makes it so easy for the batsman from the trajectory itself. I love how Grimmett taught Ashley Mallett the importance of flight through the example of the bridge and the manhole. Grimmett was devastating against the technically weak batsmen, mainly because of his different variations of flipper. No wonder that some people hold his record against SA and WI and weak FA sides (10/37 comes to mind) against his all-time greatness. However, he used less of flipper and more of his stock ball and wrong-un against better batsmen. Grimmett probably had more influence on the upcoming legspinners than O'Reilly himself, primarily because of his scientific approach and extremely intelligent way to analyse the game as a bowler. No wonder that Ashley Mallett called him the Bradman of Spin. Grimmett is one of the two players who took more than 100 wickets debuting after the age of 30, and still the only one to take more than 200 among such players. At last, he was dropped from the test side at the age of 44 after a series where he was the most successful bowler by far (it must be known that he wasn't the best of friends with Bradman). He continued to be extremely successful in FA arena. He was a man with supreme ego, and as the story goes, when he was recalled in the test side a year later, he declined the offer. He could be the first player to cross 300 wickets too if he wished, who knows? The writings about Grimmett, and the writings by him, are probably the best literature one can find about spin bowling.
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
Those wrong-uns of Warne which he pitched short generally didn't bounce too much because of the lower trajectory and the reverse revolutions.
Also look how such a good batsman against spin bowling couldn't read the googly till the last moment when he saw the ball didn't come towards his legs as expected, and made a hurried and desparate response. The most important part is that ball was bowled keeping that kind of dismissal in mind (Warne made that plan against Ganguly because he knew that Ganguly loved to jump forward against spinners, he kept it a bit shorter so that Ganguly can't reach it, he pitched it much outside off so that Ganguly mistakes it to be a normal legspinner, and he planned the stumping because he trusted the wicketkeeping skills of Gilchrist).
That is the guile and intelligence involved with spin bowling, **** silentstriker
Contra
Cricketer Of The Year
Still doesn't change the fact that had the ball bounced a little more (as it would on most occasions) Ganguly would have had a decent chance of stopping it. I'm not disagreeing with Warne's planing etc.Those wrong-uns of Warne which he pitched short generally didn't bounce too much because of the lower trajectory and the reverse revolutions.
Also look how such a good batsman against spin bowling couldn't read the googly till the last moment when he saw the ball didn't come towards his legs as expected, and made a hurried and desparate response. The most important part is that ball was bowled keeping that kind of dismissal in mind (Warne made that plan against Ganguly because he knew that Ganguly loved to jump forward against spinners, he kept it a bit shorter so that Ganguly can't reach it, he pitched it much outside off so that Ganguly mistakes it to be a normal legspinner, and he planned the stumping because he trusted the wicketkeeping skills of Gilchrist).
That is the guile and intelligence involved with spin bowling, **** silentstriker
TumTum
Banned
weldone I think in the same series he bowled a ball to someone (cant remember) that drifted a mile from the stumps to outside leg and bowled him around his legs.
See at 0:11 here. My favorite
Like this one as well .
See at 0:11 here. My favorite
Like this one as well .
Blog it for six
Cricket Spectator
I was so surprised that when I voted for Muralitharan, I was only the third person to do so!
800 test wickets at 22.73 with 67 five-fors and an incredible 22 ten wicket matches. Stats aside, I think the visual spectacle of his bowling and the grip he held over batters for 18 years won't be bettered. Big claim I know, but I think his legacy will grow from strength to stength as his years away from the game grow. I was always in the camp that thought even though Warne got less wickets, that he had the better cricket brain. Not so sure anymore, Warne's bowling stats are significantly poorer than Murali and Warney also played in a much better team with more media exposure.
As an interesting side note, Sachin who got 15 votes and lies in second place, was out the most times to ... Muralitharan. In total, Murali snared Tendulkar 8 times over his career, which is the most of any bowler. Murali achieved this even though Sachin had more innings in his career against Aus, Eng and SA. Also, Warney only got the Little Master 3 times...
800 test wickets at 22.73 with 67 five-fors and an incredible 22 ten wicket matches. Stats aside, I think the visual spectacle of his bowling and the grip he held over batters for 18 years won't be bettered. Big claim I know, but I think his legacy will grow from strength to stength as his years away from the game grow. I was always in the camp that thought even though Warne got less wickets, that he had the better cricket brain. Not so sure anymore, Warne's bowling stats are significantly poorer than Murali and Warney also played in a much better team with more media exposure.
As an interesting side note, Sachin who got 15 votes and lies in second place, was out the most times to ... Muralitharan. In total, Murali snared Tendulkar 8 times over his career, which is the most of any bowler. Murali achieved this even though Sachin had more innings in his career against Aus, Eng and SA. Also, Warney only got the Little Master 3 times...
Furball
Evil Scotsman
With Graeme Pollock, Barry Richards and Mike Proctor, you get the element of tragedy when talking about them - part of the romanticism sorrounding those 3 is as much what they could have achieved had the political situation in their countries been a bit different.
The same thing will happen with Mohammad Amir if he's given a life ban.
TumTum
Banned
Not interesting at all, every player is different, this was just a coincidence.
Uppercut
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Best thing about Warne was some of the reactions he drew from the batsmen he dismissed.
Blog it for six
Cricket Spectator
WG Grace aside, then the next two highest voted players are Tendulkar and Warne. What I'm pointing out, is that if Sachin is considered the best batter on there, then in direct competetion from the two bowlers on the list who have played against him, Murali faired better than Warne - as he did over both their careers.
Murali has better stats over a career and better stats against one of the best batsmen to play the game, even though Murali played against Tendulkar less times than Warne. That is exactly what a coincidence isn't, Tum Tum.
TumTum
Banned
You do know that there are more quality batsmen at world cricket than just Tendulkar?
Just because Murali was more effective against Tendulkar, in the overall context it means very little.
BTW polls don't always show the true gap between players, even if Player A is slight better than player B, Player A will get almost all the votes.
Blog it for six
Cricket Spectator
Tendulkar was the only batter on the poll to play in the same era as Waren/Murali.
Its only an observation Tum Tum, nothing to get too hung up about.
But if you like, looking at the top 10 batters with the best averages, playing in Warne/Murali era and excluding Aus and Sri Lankan's, they are:
Kallis, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Lara, Yousuf, Flower, Graeme Smith, Younis Kahn and Inzamam.
Warne got their wickets a cumulative of 40 times.
Murali got them 53.
... only an observation.
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
I enjoyed such deliveries from Warne.
But as a viewer, what I enjoy watching more from spinners is when batsmen can't guess which way it's gonna spin from the trajectory. When a ball pitches outside leg, batsman knows for sure that's gonna be a leg-spinning delivery (though they are often deceived because of the 'blind spot') unless the spinner is a trash one and is spraying around. It's often a beauty for the eyes. But what I find more enjoyable (personally, as a fan of spin bowling) is when a leg-spinning delivery pitches outside off, batsman thinks it to be a googly, and nicks to first slip. Or, when a googly pitches just outside off, batsman thinks it to be a leg-spin, plays down the wrong line, and gets bowled/plumb/stumped.
While the instance pointed out by you is more of an instance of sheer genius, the last two are of guile and intelligence. And, I personally enjoy them more. Just a personal choice, tbh.
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More mention should be made of those cricketers who provided leadership, galvanized their team and had a positive influence on their performance.
Hammond did exceptionally well with bat, and in addition was a very good slip fielder, a decent bowler and captain. Other who cast their aura were Richards, Imran, Border.
There is only so much one can attain as an individual. But when you influence others around you, the effect is far more potent.
Hammond did exceptionally well with bat, and in addition was a very good slip fielder, a decent bowler and captain. Other who cast their aura were Richards, Imran, Border.
There is only so much one can attain as an individual. But when you influence others around you, the effect is far more potent.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Would add Ranatunga there. Did his best to take Sri Lanka from bottom rung to middle and higher in tests and top in ODIs.
