Is MS Dhoni an ATG OdI batsmen?

[honestbharani]

what a bogus post


only with your match 2 analysis do you come close to a good point but it's still way off. he played sensible because this situation demanded it

lol.. as I said, I watched the games.

 

[mr_mister]

but like.. is a match winning innings IYO where only one batsman succeeds and fights through a collapse like Bev did against the Windies way back when? because i fail to see how that first example isnt a match winning knock, and i fail to see how the third example 'nearly lost the game for his side'

 

[honestbharani]

See, to me, a match winning inning is one just above the level of a typical "good knock" where you basically play to the situation and drive home an advantage you already had. A lot of the innings in that list are the latter. His knock in the 2003 WC for instance, those are the ones I call match-winning.

 

[mr_mister]

Bev played a match winning/saving knock in both the '96 and '99 WC semi finals btw. both times rescued us from a thrashing but we only remember Shane Warnes heroics


edit - honestb what do you think of these innings?

 

[viriya]

From what I recall of Bevan he was completely clueless facing Murali. But most people were so I guess that's not a huge black mark. The thing is Bevan didn't even get to face murali at his best before he retired.

But Dhoni at least had that 183* going for him. I rembwe thinking "wait.. this is murali you're destroying this isn't supposed to be possible".. tbf he didn't consistently dominate murali like a Lara - I remember in the 2007 WC he was clueless as any.

 

[Burner]

You have to be a thorough 'Aussie Aussie' boi to find it laughable that Dhoni is a comparable batsmen to Bevan. For me you can select either of them and don't go wrong.

Personally I find the claim that Bevan grossly outshone his Aus team mates to be a bit of an exaggeration. MOM and MOS are a good indicator of a batsman's impact on the game and Bevan has 12 to Dhoni's 20, and he has 1 MOS to Dhoni's 6.

 

[mr_mister]

Bevan often had bowlers snuff his glory (Paul reiffel got man of the match during that famous last ball bevan boundary victory, there are more examples too) Dhoni had no such competition from that side of things

 

[Daemon]

Bevan often had bowlers snuff his glory (Paul reiffel got man of the match during that famous last ball bevan boundary victory, there are more examples too) Dhoni had no such competition from that side of things

A good point in Dhonis favour, he had basically no help from the bowlers when he won games

 

[marc71178]

I think you're underrating economy rate a lot, and overrating SR. Anyone who has maintained an ER of under 4 over a lengthy ODI career in any era is pretty amazing.

I'd argue it's more important than SR, which can be misleading in bowlers who concede more runs while getting wickets.

Which seems even more bizarre when he's putting Bevan down on the basis of his low SR...

 

[marc71178]

I dont rate Bevan as highly as others, but I've gone thru this not long ago on here.

Good ODI batsman but slightly overrated. Absolutely no where near being the GOAT ODI batsman, possibly not even in the top ten IMO.

Far better then Amla who you've just claimed to be top 10...

 

[weldone]

I dont rate Bevan as highly as others, but I've gone thru this not long ago on here.

Good ODI batsman but slightly overrated. Absolutely no where near being the GOAT ODI batsman, possibly not even in the top ten IMO.

I'm with you on this.

 

[Red]

Far better then Amla who you've just claimed to be top 10...

Rubbish. He most certainly is.

One of the most underrated ODI bats of all time.

Huh? I think he's an ATG but didn't say top ten.

 

[viriya]

Which seems even more bizarre when he's putting Bevan down on the basis of his low SR...

I was talking specifically about the pre-1990 era where econs were generally lower. I'm not saying econ is not an important factor, just that it should be era-adjusted.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Exactly

I also think not outs in 1st innings don't add any extra value than outs. 50*(40) has the same value as 50(40) getting out in the last ball when you are batting first. And that's why Bevan's average is inflated IMO.

Not outs are important only in successful run chases. (Bevan has quite a few of those too of course)

Overall, I think Bevan is overrated (in cw, not outside).

But 50* off 40 balls is more valuable than 40 off 32, and those next eight balls being used by a batsman who is worse (i.e bats further down the order) and is less likely to score ten from the next eight balls.

 

[honestbharani]

Bev played a match winning/saving knock in both the '96 and '99 WC semi finals btw. both times rescued us from a thrashing but we only remember Shane Warnes heroics


edit - honestb what do you think of these innings?

The 96 one was a really good knock. I didn't think the 99 one was that special though. But to me, the clincher is in both games, the batting sides were in a position to win the game easily and choked. That is not really the one I will call "match winning"..

 

[mr_mister]

Bev came in at 4-15 and 4-60 in the 2 matches. if he had failed either time we would have set a paltry total and not have won the match. he was the last line of defence on both occasions and came up with the goods.

Your definition of a match winning knock is so narrow and arbitrary

 

[weldone]

But 50* off 40 balls is more valuable than 40 off 32, and those next eight balls being used by a batsman who is worse (i.e bats further down the order) and is less likely to score ten from the next eight balls.

I didn't say otherwise.

 

[CricAddict]

Both Bevan and Dhoni are ATG ODI batsmen and an argument on who among them is better is endless. In a ATG team, we go with Dhoni+Jayasuriya in the subcontinent and Gilchrist+Bevan outside.

 

[honestbharani]

Bev came in at 4-15 and 4-60 in the 2 matches. if he had failed either time we would have set a paltry total and not have won the match. he was the last line of defence on both occasions and came up with the goods.

Your definition of a match winning knock is so narrow and arbitrary

I did say the 96 one I rate as a great knock. The one in 99 I think had others contribute just as much. And yes, I do set a high bar for what I would like to call a "match winning" innings. Come on, its the highest honor you can bestow on a batting performance in an ODI.

 

[honestbharani]

To me, when considering Jayasuriya Vs Gilly, I take into consideration how useful Sanath was as a bowler as well. As an overall package, I feel Jayasuriya + MSD gives you so much more than Bevan + Gilly. So its usually an easy choice for me. Perhaps I will get Bevan to replace MSD in certain conditions (maybe more bowler friendly) and let AB slip down the order to play the hitter role and have him keep wickets but otherwise my side is set in stone.


And honestly, big at everyone who listed Ponting to bat at 3 above Viv.