Niall
International Coach
Results | England | ESPN Cricinfo
That was the last series they played, beat a useful enough South African side up.
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Moving forward what type of side should England pick in ODI cricket?
- Thread starter Niall
- Start date
That was the last series they played, beat a useful enough South African side up.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Yeah.. But I mean for them to play in conditions where being instinctive and expressive would matter more... I don't think South Africa, even today, play it that way so much... Honestly feel they should tour Pak a bit more.. They might learn... Or even SL.. A couple of places where being different in some way is not immediately frowned upon...
YorksLanka
International Debutant
a few of the English spinners do play some FC cricket in SL at present and I thought that the A team had a fairly full schedule? The preparation was all wrong for England, why play a 7 match series in SL before a WC in AUS/NZ?Yes i know its match practice but surely playing more games in NZ as well as the triangular in AUS would have been a better choice?Given that the ECB/ACB & BCCI run world cricket now, would it have been that hard to arrange?
Furball
Evil Scotsman
Moeen Ali – Keep. An opening batsman who strikes at a run a ball and a very handy bowling option. Needs to work on improving his batting output – we need less 20 (19) and more 40 (38) type innings from him, but there’s plenty to work with there.
Ian Bell – Bin. The Shane Watson of ODI cricket. Has a fairly reasonable average but that average is entirely padded out by useless innings where he does the hard work in getting to 40 (often very slowly) before giving things away instead of kicking on. Is not a match winner and is not a player England can rely on to actually do anything useful at the top of the order.
Gary Ballance – Bin. Back to County Cricket son.
Joe Root – Keep. About the only middle order player who’s a) competent and b) actually batting in the right place.
Eoin Morgan – Hmmm. Has been very badly out of form for absolutely ages. There’s absolutely no doubting that he’s a quality bat but I worry that 6 is a position too low for him and there’s not really any room in the middle order for him. Should definitely remain around the squad but should not be considered a first pick.
James Taylor – Keep. Who the **** put him at number 6? Guy’s the best top order accumulator in the country, so let’s stick him in a position that he is not suited to. Bat him at 3 for **** sake.
Jos Buttler – Keep. Like Taylor, best epitomises England’s lack of thinking from the top. England’s issue isn’t just a lack of players (in Taylor-Root-Buttler there’s actually a potentially very good ODI middle order), but it’s stupid thinking from those at the top. Buttler is England’s most destructive, and possibly best ODI bat. Certainly, he’s the most innovative and most likely to be able to play a game changing innings. So of course, the best thing to do is to stick him at 7, where he will come in too late to really make a huge difference when it comes to setting a target, and comes in far too late when the innings is slipping into crisis point when chasing. Bat him at 5 where he actually stands a chance of positively influencing a game – Root at 7 is the perfect example of how England’s cricket is too reactive, instead of pro-active.
Chris Woakes – Keep. His ODI bowling has come on quite a bit in the last year and he offers a handy lower order batting option.
Stuart Broad – Bin. He is a protected species, is not and never has been that good an ODI bowler, his batting has gone to **** and frankly he needs a rocket lit up his arse IMO. Dropping him from the ODI side achieves that without weakening it for the sake of it.
Steven Finn – Keep. Unlike Broad, has actually shown glimpses of being a competent ODI bowler in the past. So of course, it makes perfect sense to drop him for a crucial game. Just get him a coach that ****ing understands his action and who won’t wreck him.
James Anderson – Keep. Next World Cup’s in England where he should run riot. Just wrap him in cotton wool and only play him in home ODIs until then.
Ian Bell – Bin. The Shane Watson of ODI cricket. Has a fairly reasonable average but that average is entirely padded out by useless innings where he does the hard work in getting to 40 (often very slowly) before giving things away instead of kicking on. Is not a match winner and is not a player England can rely on to actually do anything useful at the top of the order.
Gary Ballance – Bin. Back to County Cricket son.
Joe Root – Keep. About the only middle order player who’s a) competent and b) actually batting in the right place.
Eoin Morgan – Hmmm. Has been very badly out of form for absolutely ages. There’s absolutely no doubting that he’s a quality bat but I worry that 6 is a position too low for him and there’s not really any room in the middle order for him. Should definitely remain around the squad but should not be considered a first pick.
James Taylor – Keep. Who the **** put him at number 6? Guy’s the best top order accumulator in the country, so let’s stick him in a position that he is not suited to. Bat him at 3 for **** sake.
Jos Buttler – Keep. Like Taylor, best epitomises England’s lack of thinking from the top. England’s issue isn’t just a lack of players (in Taylor-Root-Buttler there’s actually a potentially very good ODI middle order), but it’s stupid thinking from those at the top. Buttler is England’s most destructive, and possibly best ODI bat. Certainly, he’s the most innovative and most likely to be able to play a game changing innings. So of course, the best thing to do is to stick him at 7, where he will come in too late to really make a huge difference when it comes to setting a target, and comes in far too late when the innings is slipping into crisis point when chasing. Bat him at 5 where he actually stands a chance of positively influencing a game – Root at 7 is the perfect example of how England’s cricket is too reactive, instead of pro-active.
Chris Woakes – Keep. His ODI bowling has come on quite a bit in the last year and he offers a handy lower order batting option.
Stuart Broad – Bin. He is a protected species, is not and never has been that good an ODI bowler, his batting has gone to **** and frankly he needs a rocket lit up his arse IMO. Dropping him from the ODI side achieves that without weakening it for the sake of it.
Steven Finn – Keep. Unlike Broad, has actually shown glimpses of being a competent ODI bowler in the past. So of course, it makes perfect sense to drop him for a crucial game. Just get him a coach that ****ing understands his action and who won’t wreck him.
James Anderson – Keep. Next World Cup’s in England where he should run riot. Just wrap him in cotton wool and only play him in home ODIs until then.
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andmark
International Captain
I don't see why Morgan should stay. Yes, he had an ODI mindset, but his batting is just too appalling to keep him in, with a brief look at his scores proving that: All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
If they axe Bell, would they look at Trott again as a senior pro for the youngsters to learn from? I know about his stress (etc ...) issues, and his slow s/r but he is one of only 7 players to average over 50 in ODI cricket (six if you don't count RTD). I reckon Trott's role in England's ODI success 2 or 3 years ago when they got the top seeding for this WC!!!! is often forgotten or understated. Also he is only 33 (a spring chicken compared to some of the Sri Lankan and Pakistani batsmen).
Trott
Hales
Taylor
Root
Buttler
Ali
Stokes
looks like a decent top 7. Perhaps Broad would have to stay in the team as a specialist captain for a couple of years before Root gets the job though.
Trott
Hales
Taylor
Root
Buttler
Ali
Stokes
looks like a decent top 7. Perhaps Broad would have to stay in the team as a specialist captain for a couple of years before Root gets the job though.
grecian
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You won't get a bigger fan of me of Trott when it comes to 50-over, but he's not going to make the next WC, so no.
TBH, I've been wanting a clear-out for ages, and Morgan and Bell have been in that list for awhile, my team for the first ODI after this complete and utter shambles.
Ali
Vince
Taylor
Root
Buttler
Billings
Stokes
S. Patel
Willey
Wood
Dunn
In the end Samit is the one that kind of goes against the others, but I just feel he's been utterly shafted over his weight issues, when you consider plenty haven't been shafted over their "being ****e" issues, which I feel is worse. He would spin it the other way from Ali and Root
Each World Cup I want this clear out though, each time it never happens, and we just repeat history. Those players may turn out to be ****, so then try other youngsters or untried players, don't just go back to the same ****ing mediocrity. Willey can give us variety left-armer wise, or maybe Topley.
As for captain, who knows, guess Root, wouldn't mind something left-field like Buttler though.
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Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Don't think Wood's really a limited overs bowler, it shouldn't really be something on the horizon until he's played a good run of games.
I think the top 6 is fairly easy:
Ali
??
Taylor
Root
Stokes
Buttler
I'd have no issue at all with Cook opening and hopefully he'll remember how to bat. If he does he'll average at high 40s at 80+ strike rate. He's just lost it with captaincy and pressure. Quite happy to see Hales given a long run and see if he can establish himself though.
I think the top 6 is fairly easy:
Ali
??
Taylor
Root
Stokes
Buttler
I'd have no issue at all with Cook opening and hopefully he'll remember how to bat. If he does he'll average at high 40s at 80+ strike rate. He's just lost it with captaincy and pressure. Quite happy to see Hales given a long run and see if he can establish himself though.
cnerd123
likes this
I dont think picking different players will help much.
England just has a culture that doesn't respect limited overs cricket. Coaches, selectors, administrators, the whole lot. As such you dont produce players who 'get' ODIs. You need to be able to read the match situation and bat/bowl accordingly. Yo also need to have the freedom and the confidence to deviate from the plans set before the game. Butler, Root, Taylor, Woakes and Ali are good at this, the rest aren't.
Unless the culture changes you are not going to he producing quality ODI players.
The idea of hiring a foreign ODI specialist coach seems like it would work. Get him on board with selections, give him the squad he wants, and let him develop them.
England just has a culture that doesn't respect limited overs cricket. Coaches, selectors, administrators, the whole lot. As such you dont produce players who 'get' ODIs. You need to be able to read the match situation and bat/bowl accordingly. Yo also need to have the freedom and the confidence to deviate from the plans set before the game. Butler, Root, Taylor, Woakes and Ali are good at this, the rest aren't.
Unless the culture changes you are not going to he producing quality ODI players.
The idea of hiring a foreign ODI specialist coach seems like it would work. Get him on board with selections, give him the squad he wants, and let him develop them.
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Spark
Global Moderator
You've named more than half of the entire top seven there though. Morgan is definitely good at that too (his problems are more in the "not getting out" category). On that basis you'd think you'd be able to mould them into at least a decent batting side.
nah i'd say aus have a decent grip on ODIs
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
There's a bloke who makes terrible heat pump ads, has had 'a bit' of coaching success in the IPL, was tactically a decent odi captain, and had a few years of county cricket experience who would make a pretty decent coach.
Don't know if he'd want to move his family over there and have to deal with the rabid media though.
Don't know if he'd want to move his family over there and have to deal with the rabid media though.
Athlai
Not Terrible
Na ridiculous to have a domestic game that plays differently to the international one.
Burgey
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Just a few comments, based solely on the blokes I've seen in recent times in various formats - I haven't really seen much of the young County blokes many are referring to, so I'll leave them out. I'm also not factoring in injuries, and am assuming the blokes I'm nattering about are all available.
I'd keep Bell. I really don't think he's your problem. If the playing conditions are two new rocks then I think there's real problems in going balls-to-the-wall with both openers. Sure it's great when it comes off, but it's easy to end up being 2/SFA and you don't have middle order players to bat like Clarke and TPC did the other night against SL when Warner and Finch went early. So, I'd keep him and look to play an aggressive opener with him. Maybe Ali can actually stay in that role? I haven't looked at his numbers but he seems a decent foil to me. If Bell does get deep-sixed, then surely Root would open? He's capable of batting through an innings.
The other option is Hales, but he is so loose that if he was an umpire he'd be Assad Rauf. Again, given the playing condition of two new balls, I would like to see him bat at, say four or five when the ball is less likely to swing.I think Morgan is a quality LO cricketer, he's woefully out of form though and the captaincy has done nowt for his game. He should be retained in the side but relieved of being skipper. Balance, given his domestic LO record, probably deserves more of a go but again, he's woefully out of form atm. I don't know whether Bopara deserves more of a go, but is there anyone better in England at the middle order/ sixth bowler role?
Buttler is obviously a lock. Root should bat no lower than three imo. I would go back to Stokes - he's by no means the finished article but how is he to develop his LO cricket without a decent run in the side? He'll get pasted, but will he get pasted any more than these other blokes? And the kid has game with the bat. Anyone who saw him out here last summer and who isn't a brain dead Statophile like half this site's members can see it. Woakes should stay, obviously. Finn looks busted and so low on confidence - you've somehow taken a good LO bowler and turned him into a spud. He might come back but if he does it will take a while. He's damaged goods.
I would keep Chris Jordan. He cops so much **** on here and is an easy fall guy for disgruntled supporters, but IMO he was your best seam up bowler towards the end of the Bangers' innings yesterday, and he looks capable of hitting decent areas at the death.
Anyway, I suppose that leaves you with
Bell
Ali (5)
Root (7)
Ballance/ Morgan
Hales
Bopara (6)
Buttler
Stokes (4)
Woakes (2)
Jordan (3)
Broad/ Anderson? Finn/ Some other lamb to the slaughter (1)
It's not exactly a side to set the pulse racing, but as I said, I don't really know enough about the other options in County cricket whom I've not seen.
I'd keep Bell. I really don't think he's your problem. If the playing conditions are two new rocks then I think there's real problems in going balls-to-the-wall with both openers. Sure it's great when it comes off, but it's easy to end up being 2/SFA and you don't have middle order players to bat like Clarke and TPC did the other night against SL when Warner and Finch went early. So, I'd keep him and look to play an aggressive opener with him. Maybe Ali can actually stay in that role? I haven't looked at his numbers but he seems a decent foil to me. If Bell does get deep-sixed, then surely Root would open? He's capable of batting through an innings.
The other option is Hales, but he is so loose that if he was an umpire he'd be Assad Rauf. Again, given the playing condition of two new balls, I would like to see him bat at, say four or five when the ball is less likely to swing.I think Morgan is a quality LO cricketer, he's woefully out of form though and the captaincy has done nowt for his game. He should be retained in the side but relieved of being skipper. Balance, given his domestic LO record, probably deserves more of a go but again, he's woefully out of form atm. I don't know whether Bopara deserves more of a go, but is there anyone better in England at the middle order/ sixth bowler role?
Buttler is obviously a lock. Root should bat no lower than three imo. I would go back to Stokes - he's by no means the finished article but how is he to develop his LO cricket without a decent run in the side? He'll get pasted, but will he get pasted any more than these other blokes? And the kid has game with the bat. Anyone who saw him out here last summer and who isn't a brain dead Statophile like half this site's members can see it. Woakes should stay, obviously. Finn looks busted and so low on confidence - you've somehow taken a good LO bowler and turned him into a spud. He might come back but if he does it will take a while. He's damaged goods.
I would keep Chris Jordan. He cops so much **** on here and is an easy fall guy for disgruntled supporters, but IMO he was your best seam up bowler towards the end of the Bangers' innings yesterday, and he looks capable of hitting decent areas at the death.
Anyway, I suppose that leaves you with
Bell
Ali (5)
Root (7)
Ballance/ Morgan
Hales
Bopara (6)
Buttler
Stokes (4)
Woakes (2)
Jordan (3)
Broad/ Anderson? Finn/ Some other lamb to the slaughter (1)
It's not exactly a side to set the pulse racing, but as I said, I don't really know enough about the other options in County cricket whom I've not seen.
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