ESPNcricinfo World XI

[Jono]

Not the point though. Rightly or wrongly, Gavaskar has a reputation for batting slowly (you just said it is exaggerated, which suggests it's the view, rightly or wrongly).

So if he is still rated extremely highly despite this reputation, it means you can't use style or strike rate or whatever as a reason for why Miandad isn't rated highly.

I reckon all Pakistani batsmen pre 2000 are underrated or not brought up when they should be for the record. I reckon Miandad is underrated more for being a Pakistani batsman (when their bowlers get most of the cred) than being an "un-pretty" batsman, or streetfighter or whatever other cliche one can use

 

[vcs]

Reckon Miandad will go down as one of those batsmen Indian fans really feared. That six in Sharjah left deep mental scars.

 

[Engle]

Don't want to make this a vs. thread, and again, I love Border, but why do you think he is better than Viv?

They played in the same era, so I reckon it's a good comparison. Obviously their styles were different, but why do you think he was the better/more effective batsman?

Generally Viv was considered the best of his era, but there was a time when Border superceded Viv due to consistently high scores. When Aus toured WI during the height of their pace attack, Border performed so well he outdistanced by far his teammates (IIRC more than doubled their performance) and WI batsmen who had much less of an attack to deal with.

Border is not easily forgotten, he won a place on the CI Aus World XI, beating luminaries such as Harvey, McCabe, Walters etc.

If you throw in his captaincy, fielding, bowling plus how he yanked Aus off the bottom rung to emerge as one of the top sides, I'd have no qualms placing him in the top 10-15 of AT

 

[Jono]

Border is not easily forgotten, he won a place on the CI Aus World XI, beating luminaries such as Harvey, McCabe, Walters etc.

If you throw in his captaincy, fielding, bowling plus how he yanked Aus off the bottom rung to emerge as one of the top sides, I'd have no qualms placing him in the top 10-15 of AT

I don't disagree with any of that. I think Border is an all time great, and I also think he gets his due and is very widely respected (hence why I don't think he's underrated).

I just think over the journey Viv was a greater batsman.

 

[smash84]

Not the point though. Rightly or wrongly, Gavaskar has a reputation for batting slowly (you just said it is exaggerated, which suggests it's the view, rightly or wrongly).

So if he is still rated extremely highly despite this reputation, it means you can't use style or strike rate or whatever as a reason for why Miandad isn't rated highly.

I reckon all Pakistani batsmen pre 2000 are underrated or not brought up when they should be for the record. I reckon Miandad is underrated more for being a Pakistani batsman (when their bowlers get most of the cred) than being an "un-pretty" batsman, or streetfighter or whatever other cliche one can use

I guess it might be that the pre 2000 Pakistani bowlers (from 1975 onwards) were very good and they over shadowed the batsmen. (Is this what you mean by the bold statement above???)

The pre 2000 Pakistan batting line-up makes the current crop look like a joke. There have been a few decent batsmen over the years. And he was a real street fighter too. Played some very good innings under pressure and in the epic Pak-WI series of 1988 he played really well. In his own words after that series Imran finally conceded to him that he considered Miandad a good batsman.

Reckon Miandad will go down as one of those batsmen Indian fans really feared. That six in Sharjah left deep mental scars.

That six was indeed one of the defining moments in India-Pakistan cricket history. I think before that match the Indian team had a very good ODI record against Pakistan. But after that match Pakistan did gain a lot of psychological edge.

I remember a Chetan Sharma interview in the late 1990s where he said that "nobody remembers anything about my bowling other than that last ball six, even though I was a decent bowler other than that one over."

 

[Jono]

I guess it might be that the pre 2000 Pakistani bowlers (from 1975 onwards) were very good and they over shadowed the batsmen. (Is this what you mean by the bold statement above???)

Indeed it is. Akram, Waqar, Imran etc. are mentioned much before Miandad and even Abbas and Hanif

 

[Ikki]

Frith's play-for-your-life XI:

There have been many to choose from, but here is my personal selection:

1. Geoffrey Boycott
He left the crease almost 30 years ago, but his reputation for doggedness remains incomparable.

2. Bill Ponsford
Double-centuries, triples, and a quadruple-century dripped from his broad bat, and he didn't care how long they took.

3. Don Bradman
Remember, this team is batting for your life: how could this near-perfect run machine be left out?

4. Ken Barrington
Wide bat, broad chest, unmatched determination: one of the few dropped because he batted too slowly (i.e. uncompromisingly) in a Test.

5. Sachin Tendulkar
Refer DG Bradman above.

6. Shivnarine Chanderpaul
Capable of batting through a thousand minutes of Test-match bowling without getting out: what more could be asked?

7. Trevor Bailey
Drove opponents and spectators of the 1950s half mad with his obstinacy and rare patience.

8. Ken Mackay
Early version of Chanderpaul, just as difficult to watch, but with no concern for time, just crease occupation.

9. Jack Russell
I need a wicketkeeper who can bat in a kind of timeless trance, and this fellow did so regularly.

10. Graham Onions
Apparently undismissable when nine wickets are down.

11. Danny Morrison
A four-hour 25 as night-watchman in a Faisalabad Test gives this genial fast bowler the nod.

Surprised to see Tendulkar and not someone like Waugh or Border.

 

[andyc]

Yeah would definitely have Border in there, probably over Sachin. Am under the impression that Steve Waugh actually has a fairly ordinary average in the 4th innings tbh. Could be wrong, but remember reading that somewhere.

 

[Spark]

Yeah would definitely have Border in there, probably over Sachin. Am under the impression that Steve Waugh actually has a fairly ordinary average in the 4th innings tbh. Could be wrong, but remember reading that somewhere.

Over Chanders for mine. If we're taking Tendulkar to be the Tendulkar of, well, now - he's bloody hard to get out.

 

[Himannv]

Agree with Spark. Tendulkar is really solid these days. More likely to replace Chanderpaul with Waugh. Slightly confused by the choice of bowlers in that team though. Shopuldn't they bowl for your life too?

 

[smash84]

Over Chanders for mine. If we're taking Tendulkar to be the Tendulkar of, well, now - he's bloody hard to get out.

Agree with Spark. Tendulkar is really solid these days. More likely to replace Chanderpaul with Waugh. Slightly confused by the choice of bowlers in that team though. Shopuldn't they bowl for your life too?

So true man. I too am confused. What is Danny Morrison doing in a bowling line-up to play for your life??? Unless they are looking for bowlers who will have to bat.

Tendulkar these days is just outstanding man. A treat to watch. And he has really matured (for a lack of a better word at the moment) in the last 3 years too.

And yeah I wonder why Border is not in there????? He was one real fighter who would never throw away his wicket. And he would bat amazingly well with the tailenders.

And also repeating my point regarding Miandad being under-rated I also feel that Miandad could have been there. After all if I remember correctly it was Viv Richards who said that if there is somebody I would want to bat for my life it would be Miandad. He too was also a great batsmen with the tailenders.

 

[Blakus]

Gillespie should be in there. Best nightwatchman of all time IMO

 

[vic_orthdox]

Haha, yeah, Gillespie is a good choice. Maybe Hoggard, although he was a bunny for quite a good portion of his career, but for a while there he was a real barnacle.

 

[ankitj]

Enough of these XIs. It's time they come up with the real one.

 

[Matt79]

Gillespie should be in the criteria is genuine bowlers who are hard to dismiss and really make you earn their wicket. Border should be in there. Miandad and/or Dravid also worth considering, although I definitely agree with the rationale of why he chose Bradman and Sachin.

 

[Ikki]

Huh? Tendulkar is hardly a near perfect run machine like DG. Personally, don't think he has enough pressure-cooker innings to justify a spot.

Surprised Gavaskar isn't in there.

EDIT: checked and surprised to see how terrible Waugh's 4th innings average is. Tendulkar's is pretty bad too. Same with Lara (someone who I was going to mention). Ponting averages 52 though, which is incredible.

 

[GotSpin]

Doesn't someone need to bowl for your life?

If so, I'd maybe have someone like Courtney Walsh. You know he isn't going to break down after a session.

 

[Jono]

Lol. A thrill a minute and elegant XI receives anger but a "play for your life" XI, which makes little sense because it's unclear if the team is actually bowling or not, gets lots of discussion.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Yeah 4th innings averages are great indicators.Yuvraj averages about 57 and vvs a good 15-20 points.Yuvraj clearly a better pressure player than vvs.

 

[vcs]

Yeah 4th innings averages are great indicators.Yuvraj averages about 57 and vvs a good 15-20 points.Yuvraj clearly a better pressure player than vvs.

Fourth innings average, taken on its own, means **** all while evaluating how good a player is in a pressure cooker situation. FTR, I'd take Lara over both Tendulkar and Ponting in a tight fourth innings scenario but the averages wouldn't tell you that. It's more about how many defining innings the batsman produces.