Harris vs. Hauritz vs. Swann

[Migara]

Gambhir?

I rate Raina better. May be you've seen more than me.

 

[Migara]

Well they are basically always the same thing, except in the case of Murali.

FTR, are Chinamen counted as leg-spinners or just Chinamen?

Counted as a wrist spinner and off spinner
On rare occasions "frog in a blender"

 

[GIMH]

The only time that Swann had an effect on the game was when Australia were chasing super-unlikely targets. He was a contributor, but not that vital in determining the series.

yeah, I agree but the difference between him and Hauritz was that he finished the job off when it mattered most.

Edit - tbf you couldn't blame Hauritz at all for Cardiff

 

[BoyBrumby]

Everyone remembers Jimmy's & Monty's glorious last wicket stand, but really it wasn't a game we should've got as close to losing as we did. I remember most Aussies at the time being fairly convinced it'd be a safe draw when we started our second innings.

Think Nath said earlier in the thread (or it might be in aussie's "Hauritz is a ****" thread) that his figures did flatter him slightly and that's def true of Cardiff. Was tidy but (if memory serves) in the first innings he got KP trying to sweep a ball that pitched 18 inches outside off to the leg side and two tailenders on the mow.

 

[andyc]

Got Strauss with a good'un IIRC.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Got Strauss with a good'un IIRC.

2nd innings, wasn't it? Was doing a little on day five from memory I think. Doogie bowled well without ever really threatening to run through us. I remember being distinctly chuffed that Punter went for two overs of spin from him & North right at the end rather than one of pace from (probably) Hilfy.

 

[Uppercut]

Everyone remembers Jimmy's & Monty's glorious last wicket stand, but really it wasn't a game we should've got as close to losing as we did. I remember most Aussies at the time being fairly convinced it'd be a safe draw when we started our second innings.

Think Nath said earlier in the thread (or it might be in aussie's "Hauritz is a ****" thread) that his figures did flatter him slightly and that's def true of Cardiff. Was tidy but (if memory serves) in the first innings he got KP trying to sweep a ball that pitched 18 inches outside off to the leg side and two tailenders on the mow.

TBF to Hauritz he pushed it wide when he saw KP get down for the shot. The pitch map made that blindingly obvious, it was a foot wider than anything he'd bowled that day. Gotta give him credit for that one.

I agree that Hauritz's figures for the series flatter him somewhat while Swann's are a bit harsher than they should be, but Hauritz was definitely the better spinner in that series nevertheless.

Needless to say, Swann's miles better in general.

 

[aussie]

I rate Raina better. May be you've seen more than me.

Katich is right up there as well.

 

[Migara]

Katich is right up there as well.

When did you exactly see Mr. Katrich dominating Muralitharan?

 

[aussie]

When did you exactly see Mr. Katrich dominating Muralitharan?

Didn't domiante him a la Lara 2001. But his 86 in partnership with Langer @ Colombo, he played Murali excellently. He played Murali that day as competently as Thorpe did in 01/02 & 03/04.

While of course Katich was excellent vs Kumble/Harbhajan in IND 04 & 08. Plus his batting vs Kumble @ SCG 04 turner saved AUS from losing @ home to IND in that series.

 

[aussie]

TBF to Hauritz he pushed it wide when he saw KP get down for the shot. The pitch map made that blindingly obvious, it was a foot wider than anything he'd bowled that day. Gotta give him credit for that one.

Although Hauritz did push it wider when he saw KP go down for the sweep. KP tried to be too cute with that shot, he could have easily played a hard commanding sweep. He would have never tried such a such a shot vs Murali or Harbhajan.

I agree that Hauritz's figures for the series flatter him somewhat while Swann's are a bit harsher than they should be, but Hauritz was definitely the better spinner in that series nevertheless.

How could that be, when Swann actually did his job by utilizing wearing 5th day wickets @ Lords & Oval & play a key role in ENG bowling out AUS. While Hauritz failed to do so in similar conditons @ Cardiff?

 

[Furball]

Because Cardiff wasn't a wearing 5th day pitch, and Hauritz wasn't given much of an opportunity to bowl at England on the 5th day of any Tests.

 

[aussie]

Because Cardiff wasn't a wearing 5th day pitch, and Hauritz wasn't given much of an opportunity to bowl at England on the 5th day of any Tests.

spillsteajpg.

Cardiff wasn't a wearing 5th day pitch??. My word what where you watching - first you tell me in another thread Adelaide 09 (where Hauritz also failed to be penetrative when Benn took 5 wickets) wasn't turning & that was "worst test pitch ever- now this. Doing a very good job in proving that you dont watch cricket - or pay attention to key details.

Rough patches where everywhere on the last day & Hauritz certainly got turn out of them. But his failure was fact that although turn was present, ENG batsmen managed to keep he out - especially the tailenders. Jason Krejza would have done far better job on that final day.

 

[GIMH]

The oval wasn't a day five pitch tbh

 

[vic_orthdox]

KP could have played a hard, commanding sweep, he could have left it, he could have cover driven it. Simply put, Hauritz bowled a delivery which coaxed him into making the wrong decision, which is pretty much what spinners try to do to take wickets; and it doesn't have to be with wonderballs like Swann's to Farhat (who could have defended it off the back foot, or got his leg in line with the ball and padded it away seeing as it pitched outside leg) or a Murali doosra.

 

[andyc]

KP could have played a hard, commanding sweep, he could have left it, he could have cover driven it. Simply put, Hauritz bowled a delivery which coaxed him into making the wrong decision, which is pretty much what spinners try to do to take wickets; and it doesn't have to be with wonderballs like Swann's to Farhat (who could have defended it off the back foot, or got his leg in line with the ball and padded it away seeing as it pitched outside leg) or a Murali doosra.

Nail, head, etc.

 

[aussie]

KP could have played a hard, commanding sweep, he could have left it, he could have cover driven it. Simply put, Hauritz bowled a delivery which coaxed him into making the wrong decision, which is pretty much what spinners try to do to take wickets; and it doesn't have to be with wonderballs like Swann's to Farhat (who could have defended it off the back foot, or got his leg in line with the ball and padded it away seeing as it pitched outside leg) or a Murali doosra.

KP was only coaxed into playing that sweep because of the utter disdain he had for Hauritz & other joke/average spinners he has faced in his career either.

Its not the first time either. @ Kingston he tried a similar stupid shot going for hundred. Both of these dismissals where down to KP own stupidy & utter disdain for them - nothing to do with the ability of Hauritz & Benn. He would have never tried those shots facing Murali or Kumble etc.


Yes i agree & believe to an extent that dismissals through the batsman underrating and/or attacking avergae spinners are still valid (if not just as valid) in comparison to dismissals that come from something "special" (such as large amounts of drift and turn). As a finger spinner in particular, luring the batsman into underrating and/or attacking your bowling is probably how you're going to get a lot of your dismissals, by drawing batsmen into a false sense of security. Paul Harris & Giles are perfect examples of this.

But what those two guys have over Hauritz quite clearly as i've mentioned before is that thread of mine, is the ability to be wicket-taking (take 5 wicket hauls) againts the best of oppositions on a 4th or 5th day wearing pitch. Which is the main job of a spinner in tests.

All Haurtiz has proven he can do in such circumstances is be accurate - but not wicket-taking. So basically at the end of the day Australia when trying to bowl out a side in the 4th innings will still have to depend mainly on the fast-bowlers to take the wickets - since Haurtiz is not doing his job.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Its not the first time either. @ Kingston he tried a similar stupid shot going for hundred. Both of these dismissals where down to KP own stupidy & utter disdain for them - nothing to do with the ability of Hauritz & Benn. He would have never tried those shots facing Murali or Kumble etc.

YouTube - Pietersen's reverse-sweep for SIX off Murali

Yes i agree & believe to an extent that dismissals through the batsman underrating and/or attacking avergae spinners are still valid (if not just as valid) in comparison to dismissals that come from something "special" (such as large amounts of drift and turn). As a finger spinner in particular, luring the batsman into underrating and/or attacking your bowling is probably how you're going to get a lot of your dismissals, by drawing batsmen into a false sense of security. Paul Harris & Giles are perfect examples of this.

But what those two guys have over Hauritz quite clearly as i've mentioned before is that thread of mine, is the ability to be wicket-taking (take 5 wicket hauls) againts the best of oppositions on a 4th or 5th day wearing pitch. Which is the main job of a spinner in tests.

All Haurtiz has proven he can do in such circumstances is be accurate - but not wicket-taking. So basically at the end of the day Australia when trying to bowl out a side in the 4th innings will still have to depend mainly on the fast-bowlers to take the wickets - since Haurtiz is not doing his job.

His fourth innings average was highlighted by a number of commentators in the Australian summer, and he set about rectifying that; performing well against Pakistan in three tests which you've discounted for an understandable reason. He's had only one other chance to bowl in the last innings, and that was when he bowled pretty well against NZ, but Johnson was being a wrecking ball up the other end.

 

[Top_Cat]

KP was only coaxed into playing that sweep because of the utter disdain he had for Hauritz & other joke/average spinners he has faced in his career either.

Its not the first time either. @ Kingston he tried a similar stupid shot going for hundred. Both of these dismissals where down to KP own stupidy & utter disdain for them - nothing to do with the ability of Hauritz & Benn. He would have never tried those shots facing Murali or Kumble etc.

YouTube - Pietersen's reverse-sweep for SIX off Murali

 

[Top_Cat]

EDIT: Hah! @ Jack.