Where Next For Kevin Pietersen?

[GuyFromLancs]

But if we go by you theory then Mark Waugh is a much better batsmen that Pietersen because Waugh looked a very much better batsman.

Do straw man arguments come naturally to you or do you practice them?

 

[Streetwise]

Do straw man arguments come naturally to you or do you practice them?

They come from you so I just point out how ridiculous they are.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

They come from you so I just point out how ridiculous they are.

That doesn't make any sense at all in the context of this thread. Perhaps you should read it again. You implied, in the context of the discussion, that Clarke's current average is higher than KP's so he is a better player. I disagreed. You resorted to type and made a ridiculous argument out of it.

 

[Streetwise]

That doesn't make any sense at all in the context of this thread. Perhaps you should read it again. You implied, in the context of the discussion, that Clarke's current average is higher than KP's so he is a better player. I disagreed. You resorted to type and made a ridiculous argument out of it.

I posted that you would expect the superior batsman to have a higher average, you then claimed that I said Clarke was a better batsman than Pietersen and I think Samaraweera is better than Viv. Read the posts again and you might then see where you have put words into my mouth then argued against it.

For the record Pietersen and Clarke have very similar records in the same era and neither is better than the other and we will have to wait for thier respective careers to finish before any sensible comparisions can be made.

 

[GIMH]

Seaming English decks like Cardiff, Lords, The Oval??

Maybe "the poorer team", which incidently has beaten Australia in 2 of the last 3 series played between the two, is partially a consequence of KP not being as good as Clarke?

LOL Matt, please tell me this is a joke!

I don't think our pitches are true seaming decks generally, although you are more likely to encounter a bowler's wicket in England than Australia, I reckon.

Nonetheless, I think if we'd had this debate twelve months ago, Pietersen would win hands down. In the meantime, Clarke has been a touch of class and Pietersen has had his worst form, which has coincidentally clashed with captaincy shenanigans and injury. Clarke deserves the praise he is getting at the moment and has really come of age. But class is permanent and it seems to me to be slightly revisionist the amount of people stating that Clarke has achieved more in his career etc etc. If people think Clarke has overtaken Pietersen now, that's fine, I can't say I necessarily agree but we'll have to see whether Pietersen kicks back on. But until 2009 I don't think it was really up for debate. Pietersen consistently succeeded against all teams. The only Test nation he doesn't have a ton against is Bangladesh (well, and England, obviously).

I made a post some time ago listing all the high-pressure innings Pietersen has played for England. I'm not saying Clarke has never done it, but I don't think he, throughout his career, has dug Australia out of as many holes as Pietersen has England. Now that's not necessarily entirely Clarke's fault, it's not his fault Pietersen comes out after a much weaker #3 than Clarke does. But Clarke being better than Pietersen is certainly not the reason why Australia have usually been better than England, especially given that, well, Clarke isn't better than Pietersen

Sorry for rambling a bit, am just on a quick break but wanted to give my two cents

 

[GuyFromLancs]

I posted that you would expect the superior batsman to have a higher average, you then claimed that I said Clarke was a better batsman than Pietersen and I think Samaraweera is better than Viv. Read the posts again and you might then see where you have put words into my mouth then argued against it.

For the record Pietersen and Clarke have very similar records in the same era and neither is better than the other and we will have to wait for thier respective careers to finish before any sensible comparisions can be made.

Alright, before this is pulled - I responded to your averages post with an example of how averages can mislead. The second paragraph we can agree, or at least agree to disagree, on.

 

[Spark]

Basically AWTA, although surprised at the "revisionism" comment. Think most people are saying that Pietersen has had a better career thus far, perhaps a few would claim equality. Some think that Clarke will end up the better player, though, just as some think Pietersen will.

As for the holes comment - yes, but as you allude to Clarke hasn't found himself in nearly as many holes as Pietersen, so has had less opportunity to dig his team out.

 

[Uppercut]

When one player spends a year and a half scoring bucketloads of runs and the other spends the year scoring SFA, it's not "revisionism" to say that Clarke's now achieved more than KP has. Clarke's played 21 matches since the beginning of the last Aussie summer and averaged 61- it's not like we're changing our minds as the result of a knee-jerk, this purple patch constitutes over a third of Clarke's entire test career. It's a pretty significant increase in what we can say he's achieved, particularly with the phenomenal Ashes tour thrown in. And this has coincided with an unprecedented lean streak in KP's career. If you're going to consider KP's current blip as anomalous you at least have to do the same with Clarke's runs of poor form, lest you slide into Richard territory. And while I, as you know, agree that KP is pure class, Clarke oozes brilliance from every pore when he bats. We're comparing two seriously good batsmen here.

 

[G.I.Joe]

KP>Clarke. Lets have this discussion when KP isn't in poor form.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

Perhaps "revisionism" is taking it a bit far, but it's certainly a bit selective to judge KP at the time he has had the worst injury/worst run of form and the captaincy fiasco. If I remember correctly, 5 years ago there were Aussies claiming Ponting had overtaken SRT............

 

[Spark]

KP>Clarke. Lets have this discussion when KP isn't in poor form.

He's not in that bad form. He's hardly playing worse than he's been for the past two or three years.

 

[social]

Tbh, I'd be surprised if Clarke doesnt end up with a better record than KP

They're both great talents but Clarke has more brains, better technique and is not simply a mercenary

 

[Streetwise]

- I responded to your averages post with an example of how averages can mislead. .

That is a load of crock, I compared two players who are playing in the same era and you countered with two players that played in completely different eras (Viv retired 8+ years before Samaraweeras career started) .

Your example only showed that you dont have a very good understanding of logic when it comes to stats, comparing Clarke and Pietersens averages is a valid exercise.

 

[Uppercut]

Your example only showed that you dont have a very good understanding of logic when it comes to stats, comparing Clarke and Pietersens averages is a valid exercise.

Their figures are very close together though, and the sample size is reasonably small. I don't think the stats give you an awful lot here, but obviously if you do want to take them into account you can give Clarke a small edge.

 

[Streetwise]

Their figures are very close together though, and the sample size is reasonably small. I don't think the stats give you an awful lot here, but obviously if you do want to take them into account you can give Clarke a small edge.

That was my point, there is nothing to suggest that either player can be called better at this stage, I think that a sample size of 90+ innings each is more than adequate. If Pietersen was superior then that would definiately show up in thier respective stats.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

Tests

KP has 5074 runs and 16 centuries in 108 innings.

Clarke has 4375 runs and 14 centuries in 109 innings.

Not-outs are the only thing that put Clarke's average above KP's.

KP has about 15% more runs in the same matches and less innings, despite playing for a weaker side. His ODI and first class records are also superior.

 

[Streetwise]

Tests

KP has 5074 runs and 16 centuries in 108 innings.

Clarke has 4375 runs and 14 centuries in 109 innings.

Not-outs are the only thing that put Clarke's average above KP's.

KP has about 15% more runs in the same matches and less innings, despite playing for a weaker side. His ODI and first class records are also superior.

.
The reason that Clarke has more not outs is because the bowlers were not able to dismiss him as often as they were able to dismiss Pietersen.

RE- playing in a weaker side: are you sugesting that bowlers dont try as hard to dismiss players in stronger teams. So if I played with Ponting, Hayden, Gilchrist, Waugh that would enable me to score more runs.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

.
The reason that Clarke has more not outs is because the bowlers were not able to dismiss him as often as they were able to dismiss Pietersen.

RE- playing in a weaker side: are you sugesting that bowlers dont try as hard to dismiss players in stronger teams. So if I played with Ponting, Hayden, Gilchrist, Waugh that would enable me to score more runs.

KP has more runs, more centuries and at a better S/R. Just because Clarke's average, and average alone, has crept above KP's doesn't make him better.

RE- playing in a weaker side: are you sugesting that bowlers dont try as hard to dismiss players in stronger teams. So if I played with Ponting, Hayden, Gilchrist, Waugh that would enable me to score more runs.

Yes.

 

[Streetwise]

KP has more runs, more centuries and at a better S/R. Just because Clarke's average, and average alone, has crept above KP's doesn't make him better.
.

You keep argueing with yourself GFL, no one is saying Clarke is better. I'm just pointing out the flaws in calling either batsman better.

If KP has more hundreds then he also must have more low scores than Clarke which would mean that Clarke is a more consistant batsman.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

You keep argueing with yourself GFL, no one is saying Clarke is better. I'm just pointing out the flaws in calling either batsman better.

If KP has more hundreds then he also must have more low scores than Clarke which would mean that Clarke is a more consistant batsman.

Yes, he probably is. But with KP the more destructive.