Trouble in the English camp : Pietersen Vs Moores!?

[Jamee999]

Cya Mooresy.

 

[Goughy]

Before he went to England, Moores' record in terms of both man-management and results was absolutely outstanding - strikingly so. Has he suddenly become a bad man-manager or coach with England? I doubt it, although it's hard to say for sure from the outside. But something certainly seems not to be right for both Vaughan and Pietersen to have expressed their discontent about him.

I'm surprised that KP should see fit to throw his weight so publicly about in this way - an error of judgment in my view.

Regarding the first point, in American Football traditional wisdom is that the best college coaches cannot easily transition to the NFL. Despite both college and pro coaches getting paid the same (ie multi-million dollars a year) the mentality and man management strategies are completely different and what works at college doesnt translate to the NFL.

There could be the same case in cricket. It is probably very different to manage County pros whos professional success and moderate income depends on your patronage when compared to dealing with high profile, wealthy, successful and egotistical international players at the top of their game.

In County (as with College American Football) the coach is pretty much King. At the higher level player power is far stronger.

One imagines that Moores may not have adjusted well and approached the England players with a strict mentality that they rebelled against.

Regarding the 2nd point. I agree, I think KP is out of line with such a public spat.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Cannot logically see how anyone can provide a convincing argument to have Vaughan in the squad. He was left out of the England tour to India on the premise that he scored runs in first class cricket and nothing has changed since then in that regard so there is little point going back to him so that one can yearn for his glory days.

All true, but it was hardly Vaughan's fault the terrorist attacks in Mumbai put the mockers on his proposed spell with the performance squad. Rather cut down his chances to make FC runs.

Not that I'm endorsing his inclusion and wouldn't have given him a central contract either.

 

[Richard]

Yea it does seem unusual, although Pietersens reasons for any such outbursts wouldn't be without reason; he might be an arrogant **** but he is also clever and would know that it isn't a certainty for the selectors to back him in an argument with Moores.

Pietersen's loss to England would be collossal. He's the best batsman in the country by a considerable distance.

An England team without Pietersen in it is the very last option anyone with any sense should consider right now. If the coach has to leave to achieve this, sadly, so be it.

 

[tooextracool]

Its unfortunate indeed for Vaughan, but he could very well have gone on the Lion's tour to NZ and get himself ready for the Ashes but instead he has opted to stay with Yorkshire. He still has an outside hope of making it to the Ashes IMO and I think England would have been better served having given someone like Samit Patel a spot on the tour to the WI and had him bat at 5 where the opportunity for cheap runs against a mediocre attack would obviously have put him in good stead for the Ashes series.

 

[Richard]

As far as Moores is concerned, its hard to guage his contribution as coach but the fact of the matter is that England havent progressed since he took charge, and with Harmison out and the need for Vaughan it appears as though they are going back to the side that got thrashed by SA during the summer. Whilst the selection policies have been better under him than with Fletcher at the helm, results dont lie and England have lost not one but 2 home series under him whilst they only managed one loss in the 7 years before he came into charge.

I'm really not sure about that. In ODIs maybe, but not in Tests. I wrote a piece in April last year saying the selection had been the worst for a good few years in the time since Moores had been coach - and this was before The Summer Of Pattinson.

England Test selection since May 2007 has been diabolical, TSTL. Don't get the idea I'm saying it was excellent before that, either.

 

[wpdavid]

Let's be realisitc tho; KP or Moores. Only one winner there, isn't there?

Probably. But it's a lousy precedent, and I can guarantee it will end in tears.

Apart from anything else, it's over such a marginal call. Actually, that's being generous - as others have said, there really is no case for bringing back Vaughan right now.

 

[ozone]

An England team without Pietersen in it is the very last option anyone with any sense should consider right now. If the coach has to leave to achieve this, sadly, so be it.

But as far as I undestand it, he is only threatening to resign the captaincy and not his position in the team? In which case should he be sacked and someone else brought in?

 

[tooextracool]

Pietersen's loss to England would be collossal. He's the best batsman in the country by a considerable distance.

An England team without Pietersen in it is the very last option anyone with any sense should consider right now. If the coach has to leave to achieve this, sadly, so be it.

Personally dont see that happening tbh unless Pietersen has the backing of the entire team in which case it would be mutiny and the ECB would be left with no other option. I suspect that Morris will becalm KP possibly with a berth for Vaughan on the WI tour although I think no matter what happens it has to leave a sour taste in the mouth for most of the England players.

 

[zaremba]

Regarding the first point, in American Football traditional wisdom is that the best college coaches cannot easily transition to the NFL. Despite both college and pro coaches getting paid the same (ie multi-million dollars a year) the mentality and man management strategies are completely different and what works at college doesnt translate to the NFL.

There could be the same case in cricket. It is probably very different to manage County pros whos professional success and moderate income depends on your patronage when compared to dealing with high profile, wealthy, successful and egotistical international players at the top of their game.

In County (as with College American Football) the coach is pretty much King. At the higher level player power is far stronger.

One imagines that Moores may not have adjusted well and approached the England players with a strict mentality that they rebelled against.

Yes, this may well be right. I also take Uppercut's point about man-management.

My views towards Moores are positive largely because of his extraordinary achievements for my county team. When he took over, we had been perennial minnows for 150 years and were, even by our own pathetic standards, at a pitifully low ebb; and when he left us he had transformed the entire club, led us to our first ever championship and set up a system which has seen us remain a major force. He is someone who seemed to know precisely what he was doing.

But on the other hand, he wasn't dealing with superstars and his ethos was about making the ego subsidiary to the collective. And there, I suppose, as you've said, lies the problem...

 

[wpdavid]

I wonder how much Harmison's dropping in India had to do with this, btw.

 

[wpdavid]

But on the other hand, he wasn't dealing with superstars and his ethos was about making the ego subsidiary to the collective. And there, I suppose, as you've said, lies the problem...

When you put it like that, I have no sympathy for our players whatsoever, especially considering how mediocre their performances have been.

 

[Richard]

But as far as I undestand it, he is only threatening to resign the captaincy and not his position in the team? In which case should he be sacked and someone else brought in?

You think he'd be able to work with a coach who he's so implicity expressed his disdain for as player, even if not captain?

I don't myself, but relationships work in mysterious ways.

 

[tooextracool]

I'm really not sure about that. In ODIs maybe, but not in Tests. I wrote a piece in April last year saying the selection had been the worst for a good few years in the time since Moores had been coach - and this was before The Summer Of Pattinson.

England Test selection since May 2007 has been diabolical, TSTL. Don't get the idea I'm saying it was excellent before that, either.

Personally, any day of the year, I would take Pattinson in the side over Plunkett and Mahmood. Although I do see your point in that there have been some really poor selections under Moores time in charge as well.

 

[Uppercut]

Personally, any day of the year, I would take Pattinson in the side over Plunkett and Mahmood. Although I do see your point in that there have been some really poor selections under Moores time in charge as well.

I'd take all three over Stuart Broad tbh.

 

[Goughy]

When you put it like that, I have no sympathy for our players whatsoever, especially considering how mediocre their performances have been.

I have no sympathy for the players either. However, that doesnt change the fact that this approach is increasingly dated when dealing with ever more wealthy and independent athletes.

It no longer works in Football, it no longer works in American Football, it no longer works in Basketball and it is no longer working in Cricket.

The less money involved the more powerful the coach is.

I dont feel sorry for the players but I also understand that the coach with the right skills is needed to deal with these modern attitudes and approaches rather than ignoring the changes that have been taking place.

 

[ozone]

You think he'd be able to work with a coach who he's so implicity expressed his disdain for as player, even if not captain?

I don't myself, but relationships work in mysterious ways.

Well, I'm only trying to suggest a way in which Pietersen could stay in the team as a player whilst Moores stays on as coach. I'm not saying its likely, but in the world of English Cricket, anything is possible.

 

[tooextracool]

You think he'd be able to work with a coach who he's so implicity expressed his disdain for as player, even if not captain?

I don't myself, but relationships work in mysterious ways.

Cant think of a player who has taken himself out of contention for the national side due to his disdain for the coach. Warne often expressed his resentment with Buchanan but they were able to work together and Pietersen is but a mirror-image of Warne in many ways.

 

[Richard]

I'd take all three over Stuart Broad tbh.

There is a case that maybe Pattinson might be a better bowler than Broad (not enough of one to justify his being picked last summer) but I'd have Broad over both Mahmood and Plunkett any day of any week.

And to have to choose between those 4, with the thought that THROUGHOUT THE TIME EACH WAS BEING SELECTED one of Sidebottom or Hoggard was being ignored, cuts at the rags.

 

[tooextracool]

I wonder how much Harmison's dropping in India had to do with this, btw.

Not sure I understood the logic for that either. Dropping him after one poor test, especially one where he came on with no match practice was never likely to be a good idea.