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***Official*** West Indies in New Zealand 2013/14

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
And the refusal of the NZ team to make use of the 30 overs they were given.
Fulton got out in like the second over. Then Redmond. Both dismissals were very unfortunate - caught down the leg side.

But then Rutherford got out. We were like 12 for 3. WHich was still fine.

But then McCullum went.

The wickets prevented us from going for the target.
 

ohnoitsyou

International Regular
I wouldn't mind my idea of picking Neesham as the third seamer. Might mean Anderson has to bowl more, but between the two of them we're getting more wickets than Wagner, and certainly more runs.
If we are worrying about our third seamer scoring runs then something is seriously wrong. Neesham is about a year off IMO. Wagner does have a knack of picking key old ball wickets, while Neesham runs the risk of being toothless throughout.
 
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kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Great performance by Taylor. His magnificent first innings effort, his two brilliant catches and his match saving knock in the second innings.

Our pace attack is tripe, no one can explain to me why Miguel Cummins wasn't picked for the last two tours and why Gabriel and Cottrell were. Best had a few decent performances but he is not a legitimate test bowler.

We need to get Roach healthy, Ravi fit and Holder and Cummins in the test squad. Imagine any combination of those three with Shilly and or Narine. Different team.

Quite frankly fair, though luckly result today as neither side deserved to loose, or win for that matter.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
could only follow this afternoon's play from my phone. Thoughts on the day:
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU **** ****!
****ing ****ing ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
****!!!!!!!!!!!

So disappointing.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Who is the best swing bowler realistically in contention for the West Indies? Because you need to fly them over if they're not here already imo. Despite day 1 and parts of other days in this test, modern NZ pitches usually offer a hell of a lot less than this one did. At best you'll get good pace and bounce. The Basin is usually the fairest pitch in the country but still, ever since 2008 or so due to both hotter late summers and the preferences of whoever is making these things, you could make a motorway from our pitches. Swing is key in New Zealand, followed by good old fashioned channel bowling and bounce. Ideally in NZ Best or someone like him would bowl first change.
 

Flem274*

123/5
btw guys I've heard Coney and Turner had a spray on the radio which I just missed on the drive home, but I gather from the talkback host it was something about the NZ dressing room culture? What spat is going on now?
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Quite frankly fair, though luckly result today as neither side deserved to loose, or win for that matter.
Sorry, but this wasn't a fair result at all. I mean, full credit to the windies for fighting back, taking it to the last day and making a game of it but they were half an hour away from being handily beaten and if the 3rd umpire had rightly given Bravo out on day 3 then the windies would've lost by an innings. While they missed a lot of chances and stumbled badly on day 5 they stilll deserved to win, which makes the draw all the more dispiriting.
 

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
Who is the best swing bowler realistically in contention for the West Indies? Because you need to fly them over if they're not here already imo. Despite day 1 and parts of other days in this test, modern NZ pitches usually offer a hell of a lot less than this one did. At best you'll get good pace and bounce. The Basin is usually the fairest pitch in the country but still, ever since 2008 or so due to both hotter late summers and the preferences of whoever is making these things, you could make a motorway from our pitches. Swing is key in New Zealand, followed by good old fashioned channel bowling and bounce. Ideally in NZ Best or someone like him would bowl first change.
This. Totally agree. We need to start focusing on more bowlers who can actually move the ball generally, our selectors are still obsessed with pace. It is difficult, because conditions and pitches in the Caribbean don't tend to reward swing bowling, so the natural length is back of a length for most of our young bowlers. Roach and Rampaul bowl slightly fuller, partly because they've now played around the World and are just better than our other pacers. My assessment of our young (or youngish) pacers that aren't here or didn't play in this test but are being talked about as Test prospects:

Sheldon Cotterell - Very fast when fully fit (which he still isn't). Offers a left arm angle which can be useful for our offies later in the match. He can swing the new ball when he pitches it up, but he loves banging it in and is not someone who will try and bowl consistently on a good length. Could be a good impact bowler in future but not one we want to be relying on at the moment.

Jason Holder - Medium fast really, but more accurate than most of our fast bowlers. He does swing the ball when he pitches it up and gets excellent bounce on most surfaces as he is 6 feet 7 inches tall. Does tend to bowl consistently just short or on a good length. I'd definitely have selected him ahead of Gabriel and can't understand why he is not on this tour. He has an excellent FC record and did very well for the A team.

Miguel Cummins - The newest of our young pacers, he has been taking wickets non-stop since his stint at our High Performance Centre. Bowls between 135 and 145kph, stock delivery is back of a length. Gets good bounce as he's reasonably tall. He reminds me of Courtney Walsh in that he is accurate and most of his deliveries cut into the batsman. He does have the ability to get the ball to hold it's line or occasionally jag away a bit like a leg cutter. I think he's an excellent prospect and he was superb on very flat pitches on the A tour of India.

So for this tour, I'd have brought Holder instead of Gabriel and I'd have played him. He's far more suited to these conditions. Miguel Cummins can't be far off selection either and I'd have chosen him ahead of Gabriel too.
 

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
Sorry, but this wasn't a fair result at all. I mean, full credit to the windies for fighting back, taking it to the last day and making a game of it but they were half an hour away from being handily beaten and if the 3rd umpire had rightly given Bravo out on day 3 then the windies would've lost by an innings. While they missed a lot of chances and stumbled badly on day 5 they stilll deserved to win, which makes the draw all the more dispiriting.
Yeah no complaints from me, New Zealand deserved to win. Still, we did really well to draw that test given the lack of preparation, previous form and the unbelievably bad bowling attack selected. I'm proud of the way the guys all dug in.

No need for NZ to fret though IMHO, they were the better side in this test and if they play like that and West Indies don't improve, they will be in the drivers seat again in Wellington.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
No need for NZ to fret though IMHO, they were the better side in this test and if they play like that and West Indies don't improve, they will be in the drivers seat again in Wellington.
Yeah, this is what I think. They shouldn't panic.


Honestly, this was a horror test for Gabriel, but I really think he's a decent prospect. If he gets it right I see something Philander-esque about him.
 

WindieWeathers

International Regular
Sorry, but this wasn't a fair result at all. I mean, full credit to the windies for fighting back, taking it to the last day and making a game of it but they were half an hour away from being handily beaten and if the 3rd umpire had rightly given Bravo out on day 3 then the windies would've lost by an innings. While they missed a lot of chances and stumbled badly on day 5 they stilll deserved to win, which makes the draw all the more dispiriting.
Well personally i think when you look at all the things that went against us we didn't really deserve to lose in the end even though NZ were the better side for first half of the game.

1. losing Gayle in india and his replacement (Brathwaite) not getting a visa in time to play the first test which meant Edwards.. who is a middle order batsman, had to open

2. no warm up match for the majority of our players and most had issues sleeping due to the time difference

3. members of the squad going down with a cold before the first test

4. Shillingford and Samuels spent days in australia having their actions tested rather than preparing for the game, clearly effected them

5. in NZ's first innings one of our bowlers went down injured!!..the guy who was the best of the pacers.

6. And of course the team were totally lacking in confidence after the india fiasco

I mean lets be honest guys..you couldn't have wished to have faced us at a better time, a team with no confidence, no match practise, doubts over the captains positions etc!!..we were a mess and it showed in that first innings with both the bat and ball. But now i think things have changed..our batsmen have had two knocks under their belts and the attack looked well up for it in the second digg..like i said before the game was called off this series will be going down to the wire now because our boys will be brimming with confidence.
 

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
Yeah, this is what I think. They shouldn't panic.


Honestly, this was a horror test for Gabriel, but I really think he's a decent prospect. If he gets it right I see something Philander-esque about him.
Gabriel has been woefully out of form for a year now. He was awful in our FC season and awful in the shorter version games against Pakistan. He has good attributes in that he has decent pace and occasionally bowls outswingers, but he is just woefully out of form and therefore offers us no control at all. I'd bring in Cotterell for him tbh.
 

WindieWeathers

International Regular
And good post about the pacers Beamer!!..here is what i think about them and a few others..

Holder= He's already impressing in the ODI team and he can move the ball both ways!!..it's a crime that he's not in NZ right now. Also seen him bowl at 140 so he has it in him to up his pace if he wants to.

Cotterrell= Shame he was forced to make his debut half fit on Indian roads!!..his action is similar to Zaheer Khan imo but he's got more pace and is a little more slingy. He needs to learn to swing the ball more into the right-handers from over the wicket!!..i've seen him do it but he was going around the wicket to the right-handers in India which wasn't good..he needs to start the next test in place of Gabriel unless we play two spinners which would be my choice.

Cummins= He looks the real deal to me, really really impressed with him and had a brilliant first class season for Barbados which won them the title. In india had had good pace and has a nagging line about him..plus gets it to move both ways just enough to concern the batsmen..really good stuff and expect him to debut after another sold season for Bim.

Beaton= To me he could be our best prospect..his action is similar to James Anderson but this boy is rapid..it's good that he played for the A-team this year so clearly the selectors have an eye on him...i want to see him dominate for Guyana next season and then we'll see after that.

One final little 18 year old gem i've seen in the WI u19s recently is Winwards's Ray Jordan!!..looks exactly like Roach but is probably the fastest in the whole of the caribbean already!!..i suspect he'll be making his debut for them next season no doubt.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Gabriel has been woefully out of form for a year now. He was awful in our FC season and awful in the shorter version games against Pakistan. He has good attributes in that he has decent pace and occasionally bowls outswingers, but he is just woefully out of form and therefore offers us no control at all. I'd bring in Cotterell for him tbh.
yeah he should absolutely be dropped. Just saying that I think there's something to work with there if the coaching is good. Just get his seam position right and he could be very good. Actually reminds me of Bracewell quite a bit as well.
 

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
Cotterrell= Shame he was forced to make his debut half fit on Indian roads!!..his action is similar to Zaheer Khan imo but he's got more pace and is a little more slingy. He needs to learn to swing the ball more into the right-handers from over the wicket!!..i've seen him do it but he was going around the wicket to the right-handers in India which wasn't good..he needs to start the next test in place of Gabriel unless we play two spinners which would be my choice.

Beaton= To me he could be our best prospect..his action is similar to James Anderson but this boy is rapid..it's good that he played for the A-team this year so clearly the selectors have an eye on him...i want to see him dominate for Guyana next season and then we'll see after that.

One final little 18 year old gem i've seen in the WI u19s recently is Winwards's Ray Jordan!!..looks exactly like Roach but is probably the fastest in the whole of the caribbean already!!..i suspect he'll be making his debut for them next season no doubt.
Agreed. Sheldon Cotterell can swing the new ball (and reverse the old ball according to Gibbo, though I haven't seen it), but he bowls too short to do it consistently. I really want to see him bowl in one of the tests in this tour, I've always liked having a left arm pacer in the team and he can bowl seriously quickly.

Ronsford Beaton looks seriously good when you watch him live and Yuvraj and the Indian A guys were extremely complimentary about him, calling him the next Ambrose and the future of West Indian fast bowling. But at the moment the stats aren't there to back him up and he is just too expensive. I'll get seriously excited if he starts taking wickets next FC season as he is potential pace like fiyah material.

As for Ray Jordan, I haven't seen him bowl yet but have heard he is likely to be one of the quickest bowlers at the next Under 19 Word Cup. Really hope we get to see him on TV in that tournament than I'll be able to comment.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
The key to W.I success has always been great fast bowling and middle order batting. At least the fast bowling prospect look promising. The middle order has some as well but I am more optimistic about our fast bowlers at the moment.
 

WindieWeathers

International Regular
The key to W.I success has always been great fast bowling and middle order batting. At least the fast bowling prospect look promising. The middle order has some as well but I am more optimistic about our fast bowlers at the moment.
We do have some batsmen coming through aswell like Jermain Blackwood who looks fantastic!!..Kyle Hope is also a prospect along with young Chanderpaul etc but it's a matter of these yutes getting in the middle and learning how to build a long innings..the HPC is meant to be working on them so we'll see.

The next in line right now are Carter, Leon Johnson and Fudadin..all have impressed with the A-team recently.
 

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
The key to W.I success has always been great fast bowling and middle order batting. At least the fast bowling prospect look promising. The middle order has some as well but I am more optimistic about our fast bowlers at the moment.
Agreed, even though the fast bowling lineup selected for this tour must have fans from other parts of the World scratching their heads think what on earth we're on about...... It's so frustrating!

Anyway, I totally agree that pace and middle order batting has been our thing. It just so happens that the state of pitches in the Caribbean means we're now producing some serious spin talent rather than a conveyor belt of pacers.

What I think would make an enormous difference to our team would be a top quality wicket keeper batsman. Someone who can average 40, score relatively quickly and bridge the gap between the lower order and our strong middle order. A Haddin or a Prior basically. We haven't really had that since Dujon IMHO (as much as I loved Ridley!).
 

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