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Thread: India vs Pak: India are the new ('80s and '90s) Pakistan

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    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    India vs Pak: India are the new ('80s and '90s) Pakistan

    Osman Samiuddin has written an excellent article about the Pak vs India rivalry. I'm going to post the article below, but his main point is that in the last decade India have reversed the relative dominance that Pakistan enjoyed over them in the 80's and 90's. It used to be that no matter what Team Pakistan's or Pakistani players' form was, when they played India they turned it on. Most of the time, Pakistan prevailed. Now, the reverse seems to be happening.

    My question is, is this just a cyclical nature of sports where the teams are going to relinquish the upper hand to one another? Or have India, due to their more professional setup and monetary advantage, taken a more or less permanent advantage over the rivalry?

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    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    Magic moments go India's way at World Twenty20

    COLOMBO // If you could somehow grab hold of the mood of a crowd and transform it into live action on the field, you would get what we got at the R Premadasa Stadium tonight in the first three overs of the game between Pakistan and India.

    It goes without saying the stands were packed. By an unscientific count, there appeared to be more Pakistan supporters than India (how can that really be given their populations?).

    And as soon as the players set themselves on the field, the non-control of fans released on to the field.

    Zaheer Khan lost his lines, a catch was dropped, wides were bowled, inside edges went for boundaries.

    What it was is unclear, but it was not cricket being played as much as simply a great release of the force in the stands through 13 nervy players on the field.

    Pretty swiftly though it settled into the new reality of India-Pakistan games, with which most Pakistani fans must be familiar even if they might not acknowledge it so readily.

    And that, you see, is that over the past decade, India have become to Pakistan almost precisely what Pakistan were to India during the '80s and '90s. In the great India-Pakistan rivalry, India are the new ('80s and '90s) Pakistan.

    The figures will tell you numerically of a slight superiority (25 Indian wins to 20 Pakistan victories across all three formats) but they will not tell you the real extent of it.

    When Pakistan dominated India, patterns strange but distinct would emerge with no relation to any pattern that preceded, or followed.

    No matter how poorly the team had been playing they would shake it off against India.

    Out-of-form players would find form for this game. No-name players could win a game. Big name stars would grow even bigger.

    Their counterparts, by contrast, would shrink.

    They won the big moments (granted every moment in these games is big). Big games (World Cups aside) were won. Decisions went their way. Miraculous catches were held, dramatic run-outs inflicted. It was and is the most infuriating kind of hold.

    And precisely this has been happening, except for India now, over this decade. It is what happened tonight.

    Think about it. Virender Sehwag was recalled and suddenly looked more like Virender Sehwag than he has for a while.

    And way more sensible.

    Yuvraj Singh, his place questioned by two high-profile former players (if few else), took wickets, effected a direct hit run-out and finished it nicely, appropriately, with the bat.

    Lakshmipathy Balaji remembered how good and popular he had been in Pakistan on the 2003/04 series and re-enacted it.

    And though Virat Kohli has been awesome against any and everyone lately, has he not looked even more so already against Pakistan?

    India, despite their own indifferent form and the usual overheated chit chat that surrounds conflicts and tensions in the side all the time now, suddenly honed in, focused and sharper.

    Their eyes and minds narrowed to the task at hand, nothing else. Just like Pakistan used to get. Players hate each other? Beat India. Matches are fixed? Beat India. Captains changed? Beat India.

    And Pakistan, like that old India, become scrambled, as they were tonight. What else to explain sending in Shahid Afridi at one down?

    Sure you could argue for it, with a little reason too, as Mohammad Hafeez did. He wanted to free Afridi's batting mind by sending him higher up, a bid to pick up some kind of form.

    But the argument against holds greater weight: in short, Imran Nazir is already almost as risky as Afridi and Afridi is out of form while Nasir Jamshed is in form. Why change a batting order that has won you games? And would Hafeez have sent him in at one down against England or Australia?

    Probably not.

    Their best players Umar Gul, Saeed Ajmal, Afridi in this case go flat.

    Catches are dropped (admittedly Pakistan do dish out that particular favour equitably across the world) and there goes the game.

    And then, as Gul and Yuvraj walked off the field together, chatting amicably like two normal young men, Gul maybe asking Yuvraj about his health, Yuvraj maybe about Gul's baby, it ended the brief unique pause of India-Pakistan, signalling that the tournament can now continue as per normal for both sides.

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    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    I don't watch a great deal of either country outside their tussles with England but is it not the case that the Pakistan side at the moment simply isn't anything like as strong as in the 80s/90s, and that Indian cricketers generally do seem to have shrugged off the hint of mental frailty that they used to carry around with them?

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    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    I don't watch a great deal of either country outside their tussles with England but is it not the case that the Pakistan side at the moment simply isn't anything like as strong as in the 80s/90s, and that Indian cricketers generally do seem to have shrugged off the hint of mental frailty that they used to carry around with them?
    I think that's probably the most logical explanation. However what gives me pause is that India have certainly put in a more professional domestic and national structure. And as you have pointed out, any "mental frailty" that may have occurred in past Pak/India clashes is gone. I think that's a bad omen for Pakistan in the ongoing rivalry.

    Basically what it all boils down to is that I'm tired of hearing it from my Indian mates after yet another loss to them and I need some reassurance this is not going to be a two decade long dominance!


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    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion View Post
    I think that's probably the most logical explanation. However what gives me pause is that India have certainly put in a more professional domestic and national structure. And as you have pointed out, any "mental frailty" that may have occurred in past Pak/India clashes is gone. I think that's a bad omen for Pakistan in the ongoing rivalry.

    Basically what it all boils down to is that I'm tired of hearing it from my Indian mates after yet another loss to them and I need some reassurance this is not going to be a two decade long dominance!
    Whatever you may think of them as individuals it must be very frustrating as a Pakistan supporter that Asif and Amir have ****ed up in the way that they have - you must sometimes feel like your guys are playing with one hand tied behind their backs

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    International Captain ankitj's Avatar
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    Yeah, Indian team used to piss their pants in 90's in pressure situation. It's very, very different now. It's obvious to anyone who has seen the team for about 2 decades.

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    International Captain ankitj's Avatar
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    What it was is unclear, but it was not cricket being played as much as simply a great release of the force in the stands through 13 nervy players on the field.
    Precisely what I thought in the early part of the match.

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    India now is a power to reckon with in the world stage..there is a new found confidence among the public which has led to "anything is possible" attitude in all spheres including sports..Also new players come from the backwaters of India who have this "never say die" and "not give up at any cost" attitude and since they have seen middle-class hardship they are more mentally stronger...finally you got to agree Pak team of the 80's had the best bowling attack and now "forget it"...

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    Cricketer Of The Year Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    We need our bowling to be strong again. It's what always has won us matches in the past. And when your spearhead used to be the support bowler, you know it's a rubbish attack.

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    Cricketer Of The Year Turbinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doesitmatter View Post
    India now is a power to reckon with in the world stage..there is a new found confidence among the public which has led to "anything is possible" attitude in all spheres including sports..Also new players come from the backwaters of India who have this "never say die" and "not give up at any cost" attitude and since they have seen middle-class hardship they are more mentally stronger...finally you got to agree Pak team of the 80's had the best bowling attack and now "forget it"...
    Yeah I agree with this. Speaking strictly from personal experiences, I sense a new-found confidence in India's youth. I feel it's correlated with India's emergence, over the past decade, on the world stage. Through their limited-overs exploits over the last few years, we've seen young Indian cricketers thrive in pressure situations.

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    State Regular AaronK's Avatar
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    yes.. and that generally kills it for me..
    I dont care if they win this wc or lose.. as long as they win against india..

    I don't care if they lose or win any tournment period.. i just want them to defeat india.. as simple as that is.

    lose to india.. just pack home.. it happend in asia cup too.. and in world cup.. it is freaking heartbreaking!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    SALMAM KHAN The real king and Baadshah of Bollywood!!!!!!!!

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    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    The fact Pakistan doesn't get to play at home doesn't help them either.
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    U19 Debutant Senile Sentry's Avatar
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    It is very interesting to note that India's decade and half of bowing to Pakistan in the late 80s and 90s began with a single shot. Javed Miandad's last ball six off Chetan Sharma in the Sharjah Trophy final in 1986. India seemed to have lost their marbles against Pakistan since then, and it was also compounded by loss of some luminaries like Gavaskar, Vengsarkar, and decline of Kapil Dev. The team entered a transitional phase, whereas Pakistan marched into their greatest form. The mental scar left by that last ball six was always there, the self doubt lingered till it was put into rest by a similar shot in epic circumstances by Sachin tendulkar. Yes, that uppercut six off Shoaib Akthar in WC 2003 which signalled the end of the golden period of Pakistani bowling. The poles were reversed, Pakistan had suddenly lost 2 of their greatest fast bowlers, 1 of their greatest openers and also marked the beginning of the end for Akthar. India on the other hand was riding a wave of resurgence under a brave captain and emerging into being a true cricketing superpower on the field as well.

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    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    The fact Pakistan doesn't get to play at home doesn't help them either.
    Yeah key point.

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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senile Sentry View Post
    It is very interesting to note that India's decade and half of bowing to Pakistan in the late 80s and 90s began with a single shot. Javed Miandad's last ball six off Chetan Sharma in the Sharjah Trophy final in 1986. India seemed to have lost their marbles against Pakistan since then, and it was also compounded by loss of some luminaries like Gavaskar, Vengsarkar, and decline of Kapil Dev. The team entered a transitional phase, whereas Pakistan marched into their greatest form. The mental scar left by that last ball six was always there, the self doubt lingered till it was put into rest by a similar shot in epic circumstances by Sachin tendulkar. Yes, that uppercut six off Shoaib Akthar in WC 2003 which signalled the end of the golden period of Pakistani bowling. The poles were reversed, Pakistan had suddenly lost 2 of their greatest fast bowlers, 1 of their greatest openers and also marked the beginning of the end for Akthar. India on the other hand was riding a wave of resurgence under a brave captain and emerging into being a true cricketing superpower on the field as well.
    Great point
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

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