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Sir Don Bradman - Is it fair to rate him above batsmen of other eras?

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weldone

Hall of Fame Member
I think there's a general perception that even quick bowlers back in pre-war days weren't actually all that quick. I think that comes about because in athletics, the world records for sprinting, javelin throwing etc keep being beaten. So Usain Bolt is a heck of a lot quicker than Jesse Owens for instance and from that we assume fast bowlers must have improved similarly.

But Usain Bolt is also a lot quicker than the best sprinters from the 1970s, say. (Hazely Crawford was it? Alan Wells?) However, I don't think anyone is going to pretend that Morne Morkel or Ryan Harris are quicker than Jeff Thomson, Andy Roberts or Michael Holding. Shoaib Akhtar may have been marginally quicker, but it's debatable.

Going further back, then, folk who lived in that era would swear that Frank Tyson was as quick as, if not quicker than Thomson. Lindwall and Miller were no slouches either. So if that's right we can say that bowlers of today are no quicker than those of the 1950's.

So if bowlers have got no quicker in the past 50-odd years, why would bowlers from 20 years prior to that be any slower? I'm quite prepared to believe Larwood and Allen, Martindale and Constantine, Mohamed Nissar etc were pretty quick...
Good post.

There is no proof, but I know someone who has seen Nissar bowl live - and says that he's by far the fastest bowler India has ever produced. He also says that Shoaib Akhtar is only a touch quicker than Nissar, perhaps. Given the lack of proof, I have no other option but to believe his eyesight - with a possible slight human error in mind.
 

Top_Cat

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I would like to think he would have refused to play T20
Hmmm, it's fairly well-established that, at his peak, Bradman was an innovator as much as a great batter, pretty much uncoached and completely unwilling to toe the technical line, used his feet a lot, etc. Bit of a rebel in general. Wild speculation but if there's one bloke from that era who'd have embraced T20 as a player, it would have been him I reckon.
 

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
tbh without data, and to the naked eye, quick is quick ya know? like for the sprinting record it went down (mile time) by like 1 second every 3 or 4 years or so and that's really nothing. So to me it'd just seem like yea the pace has been constant.

Not in any way advocating that larwood is a hack but maybe bowlers were a couple of mph slower?
Yea I can believe that. But Larwood was surely faster than, say, a McGrath. That's the whole point. Even if we agree that bowling speeds have increased slightly, there is not much correlation between bowling speed and bowling quality. Hence while discussing quality, I think that slight increase in pace has even more miniscule result.
 

archie mac

International Coach
Hmmm, it's fairly well-established that, at his peak, Bradman was an innovator as much as a great batter, pretty much uncoached and completely unwilling to toe the technical line, used his feet a lot, etc. Bit of a rebel in general. Wild speculation but if there's one bloke from that era who'd have embraced T20 as a player, it would have been him I reckon.
He was never a big fan of ODI. No doubt if he was playing now he would take the money and who would blame him. What would the IPL pay for him?

Still not sure if was plucked from 1936 he would have take to it.

I always loved the quote from Tiger after his lost his leg. He said "I am just sitting in my kitchen watching the paint dry, but it is still more exciting than watching ODI." What would he say about T20:-O
 

Flametree

International 12th Man
Yeah that's another thing. Folk posted that batting is tougher today because of "advances" in bowling like reverse swing. Go read the bio of someone like Bill Bowes - he bowled over a thousand overs per season, and probably he learned a fair bit about bowling while doing that. He could bowl out and in-swingers with no obvious change in action.

Likewise Ray Lindwall was apparently famous for being able to bowl a killer slower ball, and I'm sure he'd have been learned that watching some older players. There ain't actually all that much new in cricket (apart, perhaps, from covered wickets, body armour and featherlite bats that hit the ball miles)
 

Top_Cat

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To me it absolutely depends on if they were paying at the time it was introduced.
 

Ruckus

International Captain
Achievement-wise he's the greatest ever no doubt but saying he's better skill-wise than Tendulkar, Richards etc only holds true to an extent. The harder conditions of his time disadvantaged him and the protection equipment would harm confidence obviously but we also have to consider the level of opposition.

With the far superior training regimes, more efficient use of technology and the introduction of the limited overs format these batsman are going up against bowlers with a far greater skill set. It's indisputable that guys like Ambrose, Marshall, Akram etc are stronger and faster than their 1930s equivalents. Add to that the superior coaching these guys get at a young age. Just because a guy was well ahead of his time doesn't mean if you warped him to 2011 to face Dale Steyn he would outperform the best of today.

It's like Rocky Marciano. He's one of the greatest heavyweight boxers of all time which is dam true but if he were to fight Wladimir Klitschko today he would get his ass handed to him.
Is anyone actually arguing that if he was time warped to this era he would outperform everyone? In any case, Bradman clearly must have had some exceedingly superior innate qualities like hand-eye coordination or concentration to have succeeded like he did. Something like technical prowess, in itself, just doesn't explain why he was so much better than the rest of the field (if that was the case, all of the other players with sound techniques should have enjoyed similar peaks). If you assume he had some superior innate qualities, those are the kind of things that would transcend time. If he was brought up in this era, he would be able to modify his technique to fit with the game, but the innate core qualities which probably explain his success would surely remain.
 
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Burgey

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Yea I can believe that. But Larwood was surely faster than, say, a McGrath. That's the whole point. Even if we agree that bowling speeds have increased slightly, there is not much correlation between bowling speed and bowling quality. Hence while discussing quality, I think that slight increase in pace has even more miniscule result.
What is pace alone? Brett Lee is among he fastest bowlers of all time and he's easily the "worst" (if that's an appropriate word) to take 300 plus test wickets. You see bowlers who are extremely quick go the distance because batsmen are conditioned to it. Without movement or good line and length, even the fastest bowlers get belted.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Is anyone actually arguing that if he was time warped to this era he would outperform everyone? In any case, Bradman clearly must have had some exceedingly superior innate qualities like hand-eye coordination or concentration to have succeeded like he did. Something like technical prowess, in itself, just doesn't explain why he was so much better than the rest of the field (if that was the case, all of the other players with sound techniques should have enjoyed similar peaks). If you assume he had some superior innate qualities, those are the kind of things that would transcend time.
There is fairly strong evidence he did have such qualities such as incredible hand-eye.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
Elaborate?

Take issue with the assertion eras are completely different games anyway. Last I checked, cricket's been played with a wooden bat and a leather ball on a grass pitch for over a century. The game, fundamentally, hasn't changed much for a long time.
Ya, and so has been grade cricket, school cricket and FC cricket.

And so has been the GCE A?L and O?L mathematics papers. Printed on paper, written on an answer script and geomatry was done using the same instruments. But the quality is different. There has been many a argument about this. But Bradman fanatics just even don't want do consider that game in '30s was different to that of today, yet alone admitting that it is of a lower quality.

In my view Bradman is still the best, but not as 4-5 standard deviations shown in the graph. In my SUBJECTIVE opinion would have averaged 70-75, away from 1 SD from the next best, making him less of a superhuman. Highly debatable, but I think I am more sane than Bradman fanatics.
 
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Flametree

International 12th Man
But Bradman fanatics just even don't want do consider that game in '30s was different to that of today, yet alone admitting that it is of a lower quality.
I'm not a Bradman fanatic, I just don't accept that it was easier for him to score runs than it has been for any other batsman in any other era. Of course the game is different. Some of those changes have made it harder for batsmen. (General increase in fielding standards, for instance, the end of timeless tests, changes in lbw law, reduced overs per day) A LOT of them have made life easier for batsmen (covered wickets, better equipment, faster outfields, shorter boundaries, the toll the current international calendar, multiple formats, and back-to-back tests takes on bowlers, for instance).

And yet through all of that, batting averages have remained pretty constant. If you could average 50, you were very very good, maybe even a true great. This suggests that all the changes over time haven't altered the basic balance between bat and ball.

(With the possible exception of the current generation where it seems a 50 average is pretty common.)

So if Bradman was a freak back then, I feel pretty confident he would be a freak today.
 

Mike5181

International Captain
Is anyone actually arguing that if he was time warped to this era he would outperform everyone? In any case, Bradman clearly must have had some exceedingly superior innate qualities like hand-eye coordination or concentration to have succeeded like he did. Something like technical prowess, in itself, just doesn't explain why he was so much better than the rest of the field (if that was the case, all of the other players with sound techniques should have enjoyed similar peaks). If you assume he had some superior innate qualities, those are the kind of things that would transcend time. If he was brought up in this era, he would be able to modify his technique to fit with the game, but the innate core qualities which probably explain his success would surely remain.
Same holds true for Tendulkar, Richards etc. No doubt the skills that they ascertained over the course of their careers could be transferred to Bradman's era if they were to fictionally grow up in that time. Yeah, he obviously had superior innate qualities in his play that made him stand out from his era but the extent to which these qualities make him stand out from every era skill-wise is hard to calculate.

The only way that allows us to compare the relative skill levels of the two would be to analyze the strength of each players respective peers/opponents etc.
 

Ruckus

International Captain
Same holds true for Tendulkar, Richards etc. No doubt the skills that they ascertained over the course of their careers could be transferred to Bradman's era if they were to fictionally grow up in that time. Yeah, he obviously had superior innate qualities in his play that made him stand out from his era but the extent to which these qualities make him stand out from every era skill-wise is hard to calculate.

The only way that allows us to compare the relative skill levels of the two would be to analyze the strength of each players respective peers/opponents etc.
The same does hold true for Tendulkar etc., but because he hasn't even dominated his own contemporaries very much at all (especially in terms of something like average) there is no reason to think he would dominate by a relatively higher amount back in Bradman's era. I agree, it is near impossible to calculate just how much Bradman would stand out in every era, but given his excessive dominance I would feel confident in just saying qualitatively, he would still dominate.
 

Top_Cat

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tbh, I'm not terribly invested in by how much he's the best, how to quantify differences in play from the 30's (too hard), whether he really did make hay in a primitive era for bowling or whether transporting Bradman in a time machine to present time would have seen a dip in his average. No matter how you slice it, as you said, he comes out on top by heaps. Being 1std from the next best strikes me as being a big gap anyway (I'm pretty sure it's nearer to 2*).

*so not checking
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
In my view Bradman is still the best, but not as 4-5 standard deviations shown in the graph. In my SUBJECTIVE opinion would have averaged 70-75, away from 1 SD from the next best, making him less of a superhuman. Highly debatable, but I think I am more sane than Bradman fanatics.
I'd actually consider you less 'sane' for that out-of-left-field prediction.

A question: I don't know how you'd gauge but do you guys think a Test level player could average 99.94 at Grade cricket level?
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Same holds true for Tendulkar, Richards etc. No doubt the skills that they ascertained over the course of their careers could be transferred to Bradman's era if they were to fictionally grow up in that time. Yeah, he obviously had superior innate qualities in his play that made him stand out from his era but the extent to which these qualities make him stand out from every era skill-wise is hard to calculate.

The only way that allows us to compare the relative skill levels of the two would be to analyze the strength of each players respective peers/opponents etc.
It's not that hard to gauge. Maybe not exactly but enough so to say he'd still be far and away the best. Cricket hasn't changed that much since Bradman played. The batting/bowling averages are usually within 3 point of each other through the decades and there have been overlaps in generations of greats and players. To suggest that cricket has changed to the point where the level below Bradman (the Laras, Richards, Chappells, Tendulkars, etc) could compare to him is to suggest a different sport is being played altogether IMO - you are talking about a make-up of almost 50 points on average.
 
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benchmark00

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The real question is how many chix would Bradman pull if he grew up in this era of loose morals and even looser women??
 

Spark

Global Moderator
I think Migara is being pretty conservative in that estimate there... but 75 is still ****ing insane over the course of a career.
 

Top_Cat

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Law of diminishing returns plays it's part here too. The ability and consistency required to average 10 more than someone who averages 60 would be a far more than averaging 10 more than 50.
 
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