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Thread: Reverse Swing

  1. #1
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Reverse Swing

    In another thread, Goughy said the below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    . I have certain issues with the reverse swing which should not be addressed in this thread.
    As Goughy is one of the most interesting posters, I have basically created this thread to ask, what are these issues? But of course any general thoughts on other issues that people do or don't have would be welcome, and this could wind up being a good discussion about some of the best exponents of reversing the ball, and the controversy that may come with it.

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    they usually come from people who have dodgy wide angled arm actions. but not always cause simon jones done it with a normal action and he was amazing.

    most loser whiners try and call it cheating

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    International Vice-Captain Faisal1985's Avatar
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    LOL..

    I know where this is going.............

    C'mon guys.
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    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    Yeah I doubt this will end up well, but let's see how it goes.


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    Cricketer Of The Year zaremba's Avatar
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    Move along folks, there's nothing to see here (yet)

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    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Eek, certainly wasn't my intention to start a ****-throwing thread, just wanted to here Goughy's views tbh. But mods, go on and close, looks like it may have been an error of judgement on my part.

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    Cricketer Of The Year zaremba's Avatar
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    Ball tampering has not yet been mentioned GIMH and I'm sure it won't be either.

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    Global Moderator nightprowler10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaremba View Post
    Ball tampering has not yet been mentioned GIMH and I'm sure it won't be either.
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    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    There is no doubt that ball tampering was rampant during the Waqar/ Wasim period. How do I know? Common sense, understanding bowling and from talking to players (Pakistani and otherwise)

    It made a considerable difference to the amount of reverse swing generated. There is a secondary point that it also still takes a special skill to expertly expolit this. Though I , and thousands of others, know how to doctor a ball and make it 'go'.

    Now this is where it gets interesting. "Is all ball-tampering equal?"

    Ive played with guys that lifted the seam and one guy that used vaseline. That is obviously ball-tampering. Ill clearly state that I have never liked it on any level. Ball-tampering has occured across time and across cultures. It isnt a Pakistani issue. However, the ball-tampering used by a number of Pakistani bowlers was far more successful. Basically it was a better technique. It was also more aggressive and intrusive. It almost took it to a new level in terms of success, scope and, if you will, engineering.

    There are those that are righteous and label certain players as ball-tamperers and ignore others that also tampered the ball in a different fashion.

    I think they overly simplfy the situation. It isnt as simple as just pointing the finger. From my perspective it wasnt that there was ball tampering. It was that they took it too far, changed the condition of the ball too much and overly impacted the balance between bat and ball. The public holier-than-thou denials also didnt help their case as in private everyone knew what was happening.

    Personally Ill respect two opinions on the topic. Denial isnt one of them. Imagine one person stole $5 and another person stole $500. Ill respect it if someone said 'theft is theft and both crimes are equal'. If that is the attitude then all ball-tampering is the same. Basically 'if it is wrong then it is wrong'. From my point of view (which is the other opinion I can respect) is that a crime is a crime but there are varying degrees of seriousness. The balltampering and gouging during the early 90s reverse swing era was far more serious, beneficial and unfair than the tiny edge gained by lifting the seam.

    I can accept a lot of viewpoints on the topic apart from 'it didnt happen' because it did. Its just how serious you view it.
    Last edited by Goughy; 03-07-2009 at 07:01 PM.
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    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Reverse swing is possible without any ball tampering. And it can be achieved with classic action as well. And the bowler does not need to be express as well. There are two techniqies IMO achieving reverse swing. One is the Pakistani method with slinging action and low arm. This is was used by Waqar, Imran, Soaib and other numerous fast bolwers. Other method is the classical method, which was pioneered by Wasim, where it is delivered high arm. Talking to Vaas he has sid Wasim refused to teach him that technique, and he experimented for 2 years and then devastated West Indies in the home series with 26 wickets which demonstrated deadly combination of classical and reverse ewing at fast medium pace. Simon Jones IMO is in between. Malinga is Waqar Esque.

    Reverse swing is a reality. No point in whinging about ball tampering. if wasim and Waqar did not tamper it, even then they could have shot the oppositions out with it.
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    International Coach Xuhaib's Avatar
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    these evil Pakistani's all they do is cheat to win.I am not arguing Goughy's point he may well be correct but what gets my goat is how the issue only crops up when a Pakistani seamer displays it.
    Last edited by Xuhaib; 03-07-2009 at 09:50 PM.

  12. #12
    State Vice-Captain cricman's Avatar
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    Scruff a Ball one side and Keep it shiny on the other side + you have to make sure when releasing the ball that the shiny side is facing the side you want the ball to swing to
    Last edited by cricman; 03-07-2009 at 10:56 PM.

  13. #13
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xuhaib View Post
    these evil Pakistani's all they do is cheat to win.I am not arguing Goughy's point he may well be correct but what gets my goat is how the issue only crops up when a Pakistani seamer displays it.
    Thats because when reverse swing first made a HUGE impact in cricket starting with Sarfaraz and then Waqar and Wasim the scuffing of the ball in any which way including with soda bottle crowns was freely used (and openly admitted later including by Imran).

    The rest of the world was first bamboozled by those bowlers and those deliveries, then wondered what was happening, then decided there HAD to be some 'hanky-panky'. then found what was being done to the ball (including in the county game where the Pakistanis played), then started screaming "foul" and "cheat". Since then things have changed. Others have been able to do it as well with more subtle methods. The ball may not swing as viciously as it did with those Pakistanis and not as early but it is enough to do damage. Now only those scream who are still not able to make it swing.

    I do not agree that Pakistani's are the only one's blamed today - Indians have been too.

    ICC needs to make the rules a bit clearer and maybe allow the rubbing of the cricket ball on the ground and things like that (without allowing implements like pen-knives or crowns) being used. Anything a player can do with hie hands and clothes should be allowed. Its cheating only if you call it so. Allow this much and the game will even out a bit, the batsmen will have to learn to play the swinging ball (reverse or normal) and the game will be enriched by that learning.

    Bowlers have been rubbing the ball on their clothes to keep it shining for so long and there was no cry of "cheating". Before that the balls were made differently and the shine did not stay long enough and when the production methods changed and the shine remained for longer no one cried "foul". The balls were made differently by different companies and they behave differently. Its accepted. When India did not have any pacers or medium pacers, they would open the bowling with a spinner and he would openly rub the ball on the ground to get a grip and no one cribbed. All of us used our nails to clear the dirt and sticky mud (in wt conditions) that collected on the sides of the seam and it also helped to maintain the integrity of the seam which is good for the bowler and no one cried "cheater".

    This raving and ranting started because what the Pakistani's started doing was considered underhand (and hush hush and denials made it worse). Let the laws become clearer and allow the bowlers some leeway to 'manage' the ball conditions to some extent with clear do's and dont's and it will settle down.

    The problem with ICC is that it will either do nothing or just legislate mindlessly for one extreme or the other. Rational thought irrespective of who will benefit in the very short term and purely focussed on what it will do in the longer term would always be a good perspective to use but thats not ICC's way of working or of the idiots who man its various technical/cricket committees.

  14. #14
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xuhaib View Post
    these evil Pakistani's all they do is cheat to win.I am not arguing Goughy's point he may well be correct but what gets my goat is how the issue only crops up when a Pakistani seamer displays it.
    I don't think that's true. Scarcely a mention of Simon Jones's name goes by without some reference to mints by one of our esteemed criminal brethren. Or "Burgey" as I believe he likes to be called.
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    Global Moderator Matt79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xuhaib View Post
    these evil Pakistani's all they do is cheat to win.I am not arguing Goughy's point he may well be correct but what gets my goat is how the issue only crops up when a Pakistani seamer displays it.
    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    I don't think that's true. Scarcely a mention of Simon Jones's name goes by without some reference to mints by one of our esteemed criminal brethren. Or "Burgey" as I believe he likes to be called.
    Yeah, was going to say, the issue crops up when those criminal English cheats display it as well.

    Reckon both Goughy and SJS have posted blinders there. Sums up the alpha and the omega for the issue for mine.
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