Overrated Bowlers

[C_C]

gayle and sarwan are far from mediocre at their best. Both of them would get into englands bating line up at 3 in place of either butcher or key.

Irrelevant whether they can get into ENG squad or not. That speaks for ENG's batting frailties rather than Gayle/Sarwan's class.
Fact is they are mediocre.

they are both talented and effective players in both forms of the game. Playing in the current west indies side and both carrying averages above 40 suggests to me that they are both better than mediocre.

talented ? yes.
Effective ? on mediocre levels.
Gayle doesnt average 40 in test cricket and Sarwan barely does.
They both benifit massively from Bangladesh and Zimbabwe and without them their stats are significantly worse.
They have had one good year and 4-5 poor years so far. Hence mediocre.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

In an ODI - it's a completely different scenario!

Of course, but that doesn't mean that someone who bowls fast with good control wouldn't get wickets in either form. Yes, the situations are different and yes, there is no reason to believe he would be taking wickets at a sub-20 average with a strike rate under 30 in tests, but early in his career when his control was better he was quite successful in tests. After his injury he went into a bad form slump and was only good on rare occasions before he finally got pushed out of the first XI by Kasprowicz. He is in top form at the moment and if he maintains it he will be effective once more when brought back into the test side.

There is a big step between being a rubbish bowler and being world class after all, and nobody who bowls like Lee has been for the last few games is rubbish.

 

[chaminda_00]

I'm not suggesting he is a poor bowler, indeed I said that he is world class, simply that he isn't the unplayable god of bowling that some people make him out to be. Also, keep in mind that he has declined to tour Australia since his first failed attempt, and that his improved record against Australia is due to him taking wickets on pitches that are built for him. If you watched the series in Sri Lanka last year, you would know that while he was easily Sri Lanka's best bowler his figures were really quite flattering when you consider that the Australian top order (not renowned as the world's greatest players of spin) handled him fairly well on pitches highly conducive to his bowling.

This Australian batting line up has improved dramatically aganist spin bowling. They are probably up their with Pakistan and Sri Lanka in their ability to play spin now. But anyway if u think he is an unplayable god then maybe he is overated. When u have batsmen like Lara and Tendulkar no one is unplayable. Guys like this will always find a way to play any bowler, even when the bowler is at his best.

 

[a massive zebra]

Any side with the likes of Lara, Chanderpaul, Sarwan and Gayle in is far from a weak line up!

Any team that collapses as often as the Windies have in recent years is far from formidable and very vulnerable to humiliation. Just look at the facts...

47 West Indies v England Kingston 2003/04
51 West Indies v Australia Port of Spain 1998/99
54 West Indies v England Lord's 2000
61 West Indies v England Leeds 2000
82 West Indies v Australia Brisbane 2000/01
94 West Indies v England Bridgetown 2003/04
97 West Indies v New Zealand Hamilton 1999/00

Brittleness personified.

 

[Arrow]

If you deny that west indies batting isnt brittle, then you havent been watching them much. They have been brittle for a good decade!
They are potent and loaded with skill but are able to collapse like a house of cards at any given moment.
That list of horrible collapses is evidence of that.

 

[marc71178]

Of course, but that doesn't mean that someone who bowls fast with good control wouldn't get wickets in either form.

But the thing is, he's been bowling and getting figures like this in ODI's all the time whilst he's been poor in Tests.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

But the thing is, he's been bowling and getting figures like this in ODI's all the time whilst he's been poor in Tests.

Not exactly. Aside from one game here or there, he hasn't been in great touch since the World Cup. And personally I think this is the best he has ever bowled.

Regardless, he's certainly worth another try in tests on the back of this form.

 

[Zinzan]

Any team that collapses as often as the Windies have in recent years is far from formidable and very vulnerable to humiliation. Just look at the facts...

47 West Indies v England Kingston 2003/04
51 West Indies v Australia Port of Spain 1998/99
54 West Indies v England Lord's 2000
61 West Indies v England Leeds 2000
82 West Indies v Australia Brisbane 2000/01
94 West Indies v England Bridgetown 2003/04
97 West Indies v New Zealand Hamilton 1999/00

Brittleness personified.

No reply from Marc on this one?

 

[marc71178]

I still stand by the fact that their line-up is not weak with those 4 in there - if you look at that list, 5 of them come from about 4 years ago, when I believe Sarwan and Gayle would not have been established?

 

[C_C]

Its definately a weak lineup that is held up by Lara and Chanderpaul.
Sarwan and Gayle would struggle to find spots in any good batting lineup. They are not totally shyte but they are pretty medicore.

 

[Dydl]

Shoaib Aktar. He is very over rated. All talk, no action, plenty of injuries.

Him saying in the paper that everyone should just work around him!! How...argh...disgusting. Bob Woolmer talked to the press and said that he shouldn't have said that-he was the only
individual player in the team when he was still playing here.



I mean, Pakistan have done well without him, haven't they. They beat Australia and the West Indies and progressed into the finals all without Shoaib! I do enjoy watching him bowl sometimes against other teams. I just don't like his attitude towards some issues.

 

[Zinzan]

I still stand by the fact that their line-up is not weak with those 4 in there - if you look at that list, 5 of them come from about 4 years ago, when I believe Sarwan and Gayle would not have been established?

There is a difference between weak and brittle.

You can't have watched much of the W.I's over the last 3 years or so if you don't think they have a brittle batting lineup. They may have some very good batsmen who do well on their day, but over the last few years its been a known fact that once they are in trouble they can easily fall apart.

I couldn't believe how brittle they were when NZ last toured in 2002. I remember we got 350 odd in the first innings in 1st test. When W.I batted, they committed cricket suicide and got themselves caught out playing a madness shot almost every wicket.

Just because they have some class batsmen in Lara, Gayle and Sarwan, it doesn't mean they are not Brittle. For a start they don't bat nearly as far down in test matches as Aust, Eng, S.A or NZ.

 

[chaminda_00]

West Indies problems are not that four (Gayle, Lara, Shiv or Sarwan), there problem is the second openers spot, No 6, Keeper and the tail. No can consistenly score runs in those position. This puts too much pressure on those four. Also Gayle is not the greatest Test opener in the world either, he is a little bit inconsistent from time to time. But we all know when his hot his awersome, unforuntely is not as often as the Windies would like.

 

[tooextracool]

So the West Indies batting line-up isn't quality then?

no its not, you need to get over the fascination that just because it contains players like lara and chanderpaul, that it has to be a quality lineup.

 

[tooextracool]

Any side with the likes of Lara, Chanderpaul, Sarwan and Gayle in is far from a weak line up!

its not weak, and its not strong either. and as ive said about 1 million times, the only reason sarwan averages 40 is because of his brilliant exploits against b;desh. chris gayle on the other hand is another one of those FTBs.

 

[tooextracool]

Would that perfectly pitched late swinging delivery @ 149 kms be a rubbish ball in a testmatch?

I accept it's a different game and his critics have correctly pointed out that his test record of late has declined significantly. He simply wasn't bowling well.

Bowlers, like batsmen lose and regain form.

At the moment Lee's in superb bowling form. He's swinging it both ways at great pace and most importantly he's demonstrating the best control of his career.

If a bowler of Lee's pace (not even his strongest critic could deny his pace) swings the ball and has good control then he's going to be a danger. Its that simple. If he has poor control and is inconsistent, he will get punished at the top level.

Lee is bowling far better at the moment than he was at the time his test career starting going down hill. Theres no reason with his rhythm at the moment that he wouldn't be successful at test level.

yet in half the games of the vb series, hes been hammered.

 

[chaminda_00]

yet in half the games of the vb series, hes been hammered.

I'll give u that Brett been hammered for 20% of his overs, the other 80% his been unplayable.

 

[tooextracool]

I'll give u that Brett been hammered for 20% of his overs, the other 80% his been unplayable.

hes been hammered in 3 out of the 7 games that hes played.

 

[tooextracool]

personally, the most overrated bowlers in cricket ATM are pathan(although at least he looks capable of living up to his hype), ntini, pollock(atm), anderson and harbhajan.

 

[chaminda_00]

personally, the most overrated bowlers in cricket ATM are pathan(although at least he looks capable of living up to his hype), ntini, pollock(atm), anderson and harbhajan.

Does anyone actually rate Anderson, u can't be overated if u aren't rated.