Overrated Bowlers

[twctopcat]

His test record is much better than Flintoff but flintoff is regarded as the better bowler and Lee is considered overrated.

Anyone who has seen how good flintoff has been in the last 18 months will know how much better a test bowler flintoff is in tests. For that fact he is almost as good at ODI's as well.

 

[wpdavid]

(re Lee vs Flintoff) His career record yes, but that doesn't take into account the major deterioration post-injury.

It also doesn't take into account Flintoff's form with the ball over the last 12 months or so, which is vastly better than previously.

 

[garage flower]

So the West Indies batting line-up isn't quality then?

It's fairly brittle, to be fair.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Lee is far from overrated. Watson is MASSIVELY overrated. I still fail to see why he is there. A complete dud of a player.

Harmison is overrated. I can't wait 'til he bowls to the Aussies again, then we'll all know how good he is.

because for a raw young fast bowler, steve harmison was really unsuccessful on his first tour to australia, wasn't he? because he didnt really hurry up any of the aussies, did he? despite having played only one test before it (correct me if i'm wrong), harmison if he was any good would have come out and taken 30 wickets over the series if he could actually play.

brett lee bowls pump. fast pump, but pump nonetheless. and swinging a white ball is a completely different ballgame to swinging a red one.

 

[twctopcat]

Harmison ( minnow basher but so far a flop against any quality batting attack he has played)

The fact is when harmison bowls on form he will get anyone out. The deliveries he bowled to NZ and WI bowlers would have got any batsmen out. Lara isn't the shabbiest of batsmen after all.

 

[wpdavid]

Now, in answer to the question, I'd say either Phil Tufnell (took more wickets with bad balls than any other bowler apart from perhaps Beefy, his reputation seems to rest on two performances & overall average of 37+) or John Emburey (yeah, yeah, classical-offie & all that, but career average in high 30s & the only player to go on both rebel tours to apartheid SA).

Yup. I always thought the decisons to reselect Emburey as soon as he was available again said rather a lot about the values of the selectors.

 

[marc71178]

It's fairly brittle, to be fair.

Any side with the likes of Lara, Chanderpaul, Sarwan and Gayle in is far from a weak line up!

 

[wpdavid]

Any side with the likes of Lara, Chanderpaul, Sarwan and Gayle in is far from a weak line up!

Indeed, as their performances in SA showed. WI lack an adhesive lower middle order, but their top 5 are a long way from the worst I've seen

 

[Josh]

because for a raw young fast bowler, steve harmison was really unsuccessful on his first tour to australia, wasn't he? because he didnt really hurry up any of the aussies, did he? despite having played only one test before it (correct me if i'm wrong), harmison if he was any good would have come out and taken 30 wickets over the series if he could actually play.

brett lee bowls pump. fast pump, but pump nonetheless. and swinging a white ball is a completely different ballgame to swinging a red one.

Where did I ever refer to the last time he was here. "Again" didn't really mean that at all. It was probably silly to put that word there, but I did... anyway, I still think the Australian batsmen will be a handfull for Parmesan.

 

[garage flower]

Any side with the likes of Lara, Chanderpaul, Sarwan and Gayle in is far from a weak line up!

No, but the lack of a solid, consistent opening partnership and the still unresolved problem of finding an adequate 6th batsman, makes them fairly brittle.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Where did I ever refer to the last time he was here. "Again" didn't really mean that at all. It was probably silly to put that word there, but I did... anyway, I still think the Australian batsmen will be a handfull for Parmesan.

the "again" is what i saw as you talking about what happened last time. just thought it was a bit harsh to judge his worth so soon after his debut.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

This isn't a Test,

No, but nobody who watched him bowl tonight could honestly say that he was a rubbish bowler.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Murali has played once in Australia, ten years ago . Have a look at his ODI record in Australia and his overall Test Record against Australia, it is better then most bowlers. Most spin bowlers struggle aganist India, even Warnie, cus they are the best players of spin in the world.

I'm not suggesting he is a poor bowler, indeed I said that he is world class, simply that he isn't the unplayable god of bowling that some people make him out to be. Also, keep in mind that he has declined to tour Australia since his first failed attempt, and that his improved record against Australia is due to him taking wickets on pitches that are built for him. If you watched the series in Sri Lanka last year, you would know that while he was easily Sri Lanka's best bowler his figures were really quite flattering when you consider that the Australian top order (not renowned as the world's greatest players of spin) handled him fairly well on pitches highly conducive to his bowling.

 

[a massive zebra]

Mohammed Sami - Hyped as the next big thing for Pakistan by people who fail to understand that accuracy and movement is far more important than pace.

Harmison - Minnow basher and a failure against any quality batting side. Averages 50 against Australia, 44 against India, 59 against South Africa but against the very brittle West Indies side that average drops to 21, and against the two weakest teams his it falls further to 8 and 16.

Warne - Very good bowler but nothing like the legend most people make him out to be. Never done anything against quality players like Lara and Tendulkar. His record against the best players of spin is a joke and a high proprtion of his wickets are tailenders.

Vettori - Rated as the best left-arm spinner in the world by many, I see no reason why he should be respected any more than Giles, Rafique or Price.

 

[Zinzan]

This isn't a Test,

Would that perfectly pitched late swinging delivery @ 149 kms be a rubbish ball in a testmatch?

I accept it's a different game and his critics have correctly pointed out that his test record of late has declined significantly. He simply wasn't bowling well.

Bowlers, like batsmen lose and regain form.

At the moment Lee's in superb bowling form. He's swinging it both ways at great pace and most importantly he's demonstrating the best control of his career.

If a bowler of Lee's pace (not even his strongest critic could deny his pace) swings the ball and has good control then he's going to be a danger. Its that simple. If he has poor control and is inconsistent, he will get punished at the top level.

Lee is bowling far better at the moment than he was at the time his test career starting going down hill. Theres no reason with his rhythm at the moment that he wouldn't be successful at test level.

 

[twctopcat]

Harmison - Minnow basher and a failure against any quality batting side. Averages 50 against Australia, 44 against India, 59 against South Africa but against the very brittle West Indies side that average drops to 21, and against the two weakest teams his it falls further to 8 and 16.
.

Wait until after the ashes to judge him properly, using his stats against oz and india is pretty meaningless as they were his first tests.

 

[C_C]

Lara is one of the best ever and Chanderpaul is very good.
Gayle and Sarwan are, at best, mediocre in Test cricket.
WI batting lineup is by no means great shakes and i would rate them behind AUS,IND,RSA, SL for now...and if it wasnt for lara, it would be worse than pretty much any test nation other than ZIM and BD.

 

[sledger]

Lara is one of the best ever and Chanderpaul is very good.
Gayle and Sarwan are, at best, mediocre in Test cricket.
WI batting lineup is by no means great shakes and i would rate them behind AUS,IND,RSA, SL for now...and if it wasnt for lara, it would be worse than pretty much any test nation other than ZIM and BD.

gayle and sarwan are far from mediocre at their best. Both of them would get into englands bating line up at 3 in place of either butcher or key. they are both talented and effective players in both forms of the game. Playing in the current west indies side and both carrying averages above 40 suggests to me that they are both better than mediocre.

 

[marc71178]

No, but nobody who watched him bowl tonight could honestly say that he was a rubbish bowler.

In an ODI - it's a completely different scenario!

 

[marc71178]

Would that perfectly pitched late swinging delivery @ 149 kms be a rubbish ball in a testmatch?

Would he get the red ball to swing @ that speed?