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Thread: Pakistan most fluke team (and discussion about tournament structure fairness)

  1. #91
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    Champions League 2009/10

    Bordeaux: 8 wins, 1 draw, 1 defeat. Eliminated at the quarter finals.

    Inter Milan: 7 wins, 3 draws, 2 defeats. Finalists.

    Bayern Munich: 7 wins, 1 draw, 4 defeats. Finalists.

    Not fair.
    Can beat that - by virtue of winning 2 out of 14 matches in full European competition, Atletico Madrid are in the Europa league final this week.
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    Champions League 2009/10

    Bordeaux: 8 wins, 1 draw, 1 defeat. Eliminated at the quarter finals.

    Inter Milan: 7 wins, 3 draws, 2 defeats. Finalists.

    Bayern Munich: 7 wins, 1 draw, 4 defeats. Finalists.

    Not fair.
    I gather Quarter finals are knockouts?
    Last edited by Sir Alex; 10-05-2010 at 05:09 PM.

  3. #93
    ret
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    I agree with Sir Alex in the way that round 1 points against the team that also advanced to R2 should be carried over

    At the end of the day, one team is going to semis based on NRR, which is something that you want to use as a last resort
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  4. #94
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    I'd imagine Iran had more losses than Australia, given that Australia's path to qualification pre 2010 involved thrashing a bunch of islands and New Zealand before inevitably losing to the 4th placed South American side.
    Indeed. Can't see how you can have a perfect system where pools are involved. Just the way it is, unless they have a system where they all play each other. But then it just drags on and on forever.

    I mean that in the ricketing context btw, completely untenable of course at football WCs.
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  5. #95
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    What I can't understand is the inability to recognise that the goal for each team of each stage of the tournament is merely to reach the next one. The 'point' of the first stage is simply to whet the appetite, give the associate nations some exposure on the world stage and progress the best eight teams to the next stage.

    I don't see how this situation is any different from an undefeated team going down in a semi-final to a team that's lost a couple of games earlier... or even the declaration of the winner after the final. I'm getting really bored of all these soccer examples so I'll try my hand with a theoretical cricket one - if India make the final and beat Australia, I don't think anyone will be suggesting that we just award Australia the cup anyway because they had a better win percentage during the tournament. The same applies to a hypothetical example in a semi-final where a team like India with two losses defeats a team like Australia with zero losses - no-one's going to say that we should just let the loser progress because they have a better record. That completely undermines the principle behind progressing through each stage and building as you go along, as does what a select few people are saying in this thread. Knockout stages don't have any sort of special value that makes they different to round-robin group stages - it's all about doing what you can to make the next stage. Once you reach it, it starts again.

    That doesn't even bother pointing out the intrinsic inequity in comparing the records of teams who have played entirely different opponents either.
    Last edited by Prince EWS; 10-05-2010 at 05:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178 View Post
    Can beat that - by virtue of winning 2 out of 14 matches in full European competition, Atletico Madrid are in the Europa league final this week.
    Because unlike in cricket, there is also the draw as a valid result. And that it also earns a point?

    To put it more specifically, has anyone reached the knockouts by winning less AND losing more than a team which didn't make the cut?

  7. #97
    Hall of Fame Member Furball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ret View Post
    I agree with Sir Alex in the way that round 1 points against the team that also advanced to R2 should be carried over

    At the end of the day, one team is going to semis based on NRR, which is something that you want to use as a last resort
    That only works when they all go into one giant pool. The fact that Pakistan lost to Australia and New Zealand beat Sri Lanka is of absolutely no relevance to this pool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    I'd imagine Iran had more losses than Australia, given that Australia's path to qualification pre 2010 involved thrashing a bunch of islands and New Zealand before inevitably losing to the 4th placed South American side.
    Iran had both fewer wins AND more losses than Australia when they got through?

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    That only works when they all go into one giant pool. The fact that Pakistan lost to Australia and New Zealand beat Sri Lanka is of absolutely no relevance to this pool.
    Exactly. If we carried over points you'd essentially have teams playing different oponants to the others in their group. Now that would be unfair.

  10. #100
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    If India gets to the Semis now that would be something most undeserved.

  11. #101
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    Let's see how the points table would have been if R1 points that a team earned against a team that also advanced to R2 were carried forward:

    - Aus 2 wins + 1 against Pak in R1 = 3 wins* (semis)
    - WI 1 win in R2 + 1 win against Eng in R1 = 2 wins* (undecided)
    - SL 1 win + 0 win in R1 = 1 win* (undecided)
    - Ind 0 win + 1 win against SA in R1 = 1 win* (undecided)
    * To play one more game

    - Eng 3 wins in R2 + 0 wins in R1 = 3 wins (semis)
    - NZ 1 win + 1 win against SL in R1 = 2 wins (out)
    - Pak 1 win + 0 win in R1 = 1 win (semis)
    - SF 1 win + 0 win in R1 = 1 win (out)

  12. #102
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruxdude View Post
    If India gets to the Semis now that would be something most undeserved.
    No doubt Sir Alex will be as vocal in his disappointment at that as he has been today though...

  13. #103
    Hall of Fame Member Furball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ret View Post
    Let's see how the points table would have been if R1 points that a team earned against a team that also advanced to R2 were carried forward:

    - Aus 2 wins + 1 against Pak in R1 = 3 wins* (semis)
    - WI 1 win in R2 + 1 win against Eng in R1 = 2 wins* (undecided)
    - SL 1 win + 0 win in R1 = 1 win* (undecided)
    - Ind 0 win + 1 win against SA in R1 = 1 win* (undecided)
    * To play one more game

    - Eng 3 wins in R2 + 0 wins in R1 = 3 wins (semis)
    - NZ 1 win + 1 win against SL in R1 = 2 wins (out)
    - Pak 1 win + 0 win in R1 = 1 win (semis)
    - SF 1 win + 0 win in R1 = 1 win (out)
    So what?

    That would be more unfair, because Pakistan had a harder route to the Super Eights than New Zealand did.

  14. #104
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    So what?

    That would be more unfair, because Pakistan had a harder route to the Super Eights than New Zealand did.
    Indeed. You can't equate playing Australia in this tournament to playing Sri Lanka. You're much better off just having each group as a bubble, and making each team deal with each stage of the tournament on a stage by stage basis.

  15. #105
    ret
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    So what?

    That would be more unfair, because Pakistan had a harder route to the Super Eights than New Zealand did.
    I don't have time to spoon feed but if you see the points table, it against teams that have advanced to R2. If your argument is that Pak played Aus in R1, then you should remember that 3 teams played Aus in R2

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