Why do England struggle to produce undisputedly great players?

[Cabinet96]

Can't see any of them getting anywhere near the all-time England XI.

Do they have to make the England all-time XI to be considered ATG's though?

 

[Debris]

Do they have to make the England all-time XI to be considered ATG's though?

Well, this is the question. I think everyone on this forum has a different version of what an ATG actually is. It would be a good start, though.

Edit: see post below for confirmation

 

[uvelocity]

Do they have to make the England all-time XI to be considered ATG's though?

not at all.

 

[Cabinet96]

Well, this is the question. I think everyone on this forum has a different version of what an ATG actually is. It would be a good start, though.

Edit: see post below for confirmation

Yeah, I guess you can use it as a benchmark. But that relies a lot on the opposition for your place in the all-time XI. I would be able to consider someone an ATG even if they don't surpass Hobbs and Hutton as one of England's best ever openers. Same with Prior even if he isn't as good as Knott.

 

[uvelocity]

I know Prior is very useful down the order and has scored quite a few runs. Honest question (I've a shocking memory and only recently got fox sports which is the only way here to see tests outside our home summer) ... has he ever really won a game or saved the day (extra credit vs tough opposition on in tough conditions) with the bat? He's not a master gloveman so needs to do more than average well with handy lower order innings here and there.

plus he's a saffer anyway and a cheat but I think he fails on his own merits before mentioning it.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

plus he's a saffer anyway and a cheat but I think he fails on his own merits before mentioning it.

When did he cheat?

 

[Cabinet96]

I know Prior is very useful down the order and has scored quite a few runs. Honest question (I've a shocking memory and only recently got fox sports which is the only way here to see tests outside our home summer) ... has he ever really won a game or saved the day (extra credit vs tough opposition on in tough conditions) with the bat? He's not a master gloveman so needs to do more than average well with handy lower order innings here and there.

He played a couple of really top knocks against Pakistan in 2010, when Asif and Amir were swinging it around corners and Ajmal was around. The runs he got against India were really crucial as well, even if it wouldn't seem like it on reflection of the series. His knock at Lords allowed us to declare an hour or two early than we would have anyway, which was critical in the end. His knock at TB really finished them off as well. And although his 70 doesn't look much in a 300 runs win, had he not played that knock India may have been chasing something gettable instead of 500.

When did he cheat?

Arguably at Sydney in the ODI's after the Ashes. Johnson was batting and he knocked the bails off with his gloves and claimed it was bowled.

 

[fredfertang]

I think it's very difficult to be considered an all time great while you are still playing anyway - evrey one remembers Alistair Cook's losses of form, particularly in 2010, and he gets ruled out - now Wally Hammond is undisputably an ATG yet he had three poor series against Australia, in 1930, 1934 and 1946/47, and while the last one is obviously forgiveable because he was well past it, the other two are less easy to explain - Denis Compton, who I think is an ATG as well, averaged less than 10 for the series in 1950/51 - but no one talks about those now, so give it another 30 or 40 years, and another couple of series like 2010/11, and I think Cook might be looked on as an ATG

 

[Albion]

plus he's a saffer anyway and a cheat but I think he fails on his own merits before mentioning it.

Unless you're on a wind up, he came to this country aged 10 and was a product of our system at all age levels.
If you think he's just a saffer then that would mean half the Aus olympic, tennis, rugby league & union sides are foreigners.

As for the question, i'd say English cricket got incredibly lazy in the mid 70's and we paid for it in the next decade or so. Other than the system there is absolutely no reason why we haven't. It's not like we don't produce world class talent after all. India for all its 'ATG' has never won a test series in Australia or South Africa in its history. England have done both in the last decade.

 

[Albion]

It is not just cricket but great sportsmen have been rare in all sports for a nation of that size. Probably a cultural thing.

Bit of an ignorant view considering we have had success in a wide variety of sports. Motor sports, Rugby, Golf, Rowing, Boxing, Cycling. We have produced world class track and field stars for decades.

I'd say the two sports where we have underperformed is football & tennis. Any success we've had in football has been despite our attrocious schools system not because of. Our clubs football teams have had huge success in European football long before the EPL became more cosmopolitan. Tennis is seen as a bit of a snobby sport in the UK, outside of Wimbledon it doesn't really have much of a following.

 

[amanuensis]

Cook? Is that some sort of joke?

 

[Migara]

Not to mention Sutcliffe, Boycott and Grace.

Tough on Cook though as I don't think another cricketing nation has that depth in openers.

Odd that everybody keeps forgetting Kenny Barrington. Average of 58 with the bat is no joke.

 

[Cabinet96]

Cook? Is that some sort of joke?

You know I was doing a bit of researching the other day and I found out that if Cook gets 361 runs in his next 7 tests, he'll have the most runs any batsmen has ever had at the age of 27, surpassing Tendulkar. I know he's had the advantage of lots of matches, some flat pitches and some friendly attacks, but it's still a top achievement.

 

[amanuensis]

You know I was doing a bit of researching the other day and I found out that if Cook gets 361 runs in his next 7 tests, he'll have the most runs any batsmen has ever had at the age of 27, surpassing Tendulkar. I know he's had the advantage of lots of matches, some flat pitches and some friendly attacks, but it's still a top achievement.

Given how easily his technique is exposed, it's an utter nonsense to compare him to some of the names mentioned here.

 

[Spark]

Arguably at Sydney in the ODI's after the Ashes. Johnson was batting and he knocked the bails off with his gloves and claimed it was bowled.

that was beyond hilarious

 

[Cricketismylife]

Matt Prior in my view is probably the English player with the best chance of becoming an all time great, but even he probably won't get there.

Anderson is nowhere close, he's in the Vaas and Zaheer league of very good but not great and certainly not all time great.

Pietersen is unlikely because since his debut in 2005, there have been a number of batsman who have been more ruthless than him in terms of run scoring. The 2000s are almost known for having 50 averaging bats who aren't close to being all timers eg Yousuf, Samaraweera, Hussey...that Pietersen who isnt even at 50 wont get to that level.

Cook again is a good player but in terms of runs per innings isn't impressive enough, and he's been a solid player for most of his career with 1 outstanding year, so right now is nowhere close to all time great. He may have a chance if he continues to have outstanding years like he had before again. His career has a feel of a Michael Vaughan type player with just way more tests.

 

[Debris]

Not to mention Sutcliffe, Boycott and Grace.

Tough on Cook though as I don't think another cricketing nation has that depth in openers.

I think Australia could give it a shot. Bannerman, Trumper, Jackson, Ponsford, Woodfull, Barnes, Morris, Simpson, Lawry, Hayden would all have some sort of argument for being better than Cook

 

[Cabinet96]

Given how easily his technique is exposed, it's an utter nonsense to compare him to some of the names mentioned here.

Yet he still gets a decent amount of runs. If he does well for several years and ends up averaging 50 with over 10,000 runs I don't see why he shouldn't be considered an ATG by some.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

I am with Cabinet on this. Cook is a future ATG.

 

[Jacknife]

Bit of an ignorant view considering we have had success in a wide variety of sports. Motor sports, Rugby, Golf, Rowing, Boxing, Cycling. We have produced world class track and field stars for decades.

I'd say the two sports where we have underperformed is football & tennis. Any success we've had in football has been despite our attrocious schools system not because of. Our clubs football teams have had huge success in European football long before the EPL became more cosmopolitan. Tennis is seen as a bit of a snobby sport in the UK, outside of Wimbledon it doesn't really have much of a following.

Understatement imo.