Who would win a test series between England and West Indies if play started tomorrow?

[Perm]

The probability is very low but whatever. It is your money, not mine..

Oh, very low indeed. It would still turn out to be an interesting day of cricket, especially with Hoggard unable to bowl.

 

[Richard]

400 in 90 overs? I know they did chase above 400 once but it is very improbable. Has only happened once (a team managing to chase over 400 in the 4th inning) AFAIK. India held the record of making the highest runs in the 4th innings to win which was 396 for ages.

India chased over 400 at Queen's Park Oval in '76, and so did Australia on the 1948 Invincibles tour.

Both were in considerably more than 90 overs, though, it should be added.

 

[Prince EWS]

That is true, but if we were going into the last day with the West Indies needing 400 and there was going to be a guarantee of a full 90 overs being bowled, I'd put a lazy $10 on them.

Given they were paying 50-1 before the day's play, I actually did so anyway. Just before the rain hit, they'd dropped to 24-1 so it was looking like a fair odds-bet at the time.

 

[Pratters]

India chased over 400 at Sabina Park in '76, and so did Australia on the 1948 Invincibles tour.

Both were in considerably more than 90 overs, though, it should be added.

It was Port of Spain.. Pretty sure it was 396. Don't know how it appears 400 plus. I was always pretty sure 396 was the highest chase to win in the 4th inning for ages. The invincibles match you are referring to.. can you link me to it?

Edit: got it.

 

[Perm]

India chased over 400 at Sabina Park in '76.

Was that what triggered the killer instinct in Clive Lloyd?

 

[wpdavid]

Was that what triggered the killer instinct in Clive Lloyd?

Sort of. It certainly did in that series - the deciding test (they were level at 1-1 after India chased down 403) was a blood bath. If the bouncers didn't get you, the beamers probably would.
It wasn't only that game though. The 5-1 drubbing in Aus courtesy of Lillee, Thomson et al also played a part in determining Lloyd's strategy from the late 1970's onwards.

It didn't happen immediately though. In England a few months later, play didn't play all 3 of the out-and-out quicks in the first couple of tests, and the spinners played in a couple of tests too. IIRC the spinners were still on the scene at the start of 1977. But once Croft & Garner emerged to partner Roberts & Holding, that was pretty much it.

EDIT
Looking at Cricinfo, the first time we saw the permanently four-pronged seriously quick attack wasn't until 1979/80 in Australia. That must have been a wonderful series. Richards averaged almost 100 against Lillee, Pascoe, Hogg & co, and several Australians really did well against Roberts, Holding, Garner & Croft. Social may well have some interesting memories of those games.
It would have happened sooner, but for the implications of Packer.

 

[Richard]

The last the spinners were seen was indeed 1977. Holder, Roberts, Garner and Croft were the first fearsome foursome (though as a matter of fact Holder, Roberts, Boyce and Julien had formed a four-prong pace-attack 4 years earler, in India of all places), though unfortunately Holder was injured that game and bowled just 4 first-innings overs. Between the home seasons of 1978 and 1986, excluding games where they were afflicted by the Packer Schism, two spinners played a single Test for West Indies (Rangy Nanan and Clyde Butts), one (Derick Parry) played 2 and the all-rounder (and magnificent fielder) Roger Harper played 16.

And when you look at the names who'd been playing in the first half of the 1970s, it's hardly surprising they turned to out-and-out pace: Maurice Foster (12, though he was a batting-all-rounder), Arthur Barrett (4), Jack Noreiga (4), Inshan Ali (12), Tony Howard (1), Raphick Jumadeen (8), Elquemendo Willett (5), Imtiaz Ali (1), Albert Padmore (2). The bracketed figures are the number of Tests played (again, games where WI were Packer-weakened excluded). This, of course, is along with Lance Gibbs who played until that pivotal Australia tour in '75\76.

The four-pronged pace attack would have been formed sooner in all likelihood, but Holding missed both 1977 and 1978 with injury, and this was the time Garner and Croft came into the picture.

 

[Richard]

It was Port of Spain..

Indeed (edited). Got the 400-chase match and the bloodbath match (THAT was Sabina Park) mixed-up.

 

[wpdavid]

The last the spinners were seen was indeed 1977. Holder, Roberts, Garner and Croft were the first fearsome foursome (though as a matter of fact Holder, Roberts, Boyce and Julien had formed a four-prong pace-attack 4 years earler, in India of all places), though unfortunately Holder was injured that game and bowled just 4 first-innings overs. Between the home seasons of 1978 and 1986, excluding games where they were afflicted by the Packer Schism, two spinners played a single Test for West Indies (Rangy Nanan and Clyde Butts), one (Derick Parry) played 2 and the all-rounder (and magnificent fielder) Roger Harper played 16.

And when you look at the names who'd been playing in the first half of the 1970s, it's hardly surprising they turned to out-and-out pace: Maurice Foster (12, though he was a batting-all-rounder), Arthur Barrett (4), Jack Noreiga (4), Inshan Ali (12), Tony Howard (1), Raphick Jumadeen (8), Elquemendo Willett (5), Imtiaz Ali (1), Albert Padmore (2). The bracketed figures are the number of Tests played (again, games where WI were Packer-weakened excluded). This, of course, is along with Lance Gibbs who played until that pivotal Australia tour in '75\76.

The four-pronged pace attack would have been formed sooner in all likelihood, but Holding missed both 1977 and 1978 with injury, and this was the time Garner and Croft came into the picture.

I think it would have been formed sooner if Packer hadn't intervened. IIRC they started the 1977/78 home series against Aus with 4 quicks, but relented once they were a couple of tests up. That was the wierd series where Aus picked their non-Packer XI but WI's principled stand against WSC didn't get in the way of avenging the 5-1 drubbing first. 12months later in India they did actually pick a more obviously Packer-weakened side, so didn't consistently see their best XI until the afore mentioned Aus series in 1979/80.

As for the spinners, the state of their mid70's guys can be guaged by the fact that they even brought back David Holford at one stage - possibly for a test against Pakistan in 1977?

 

[Richard]

Yeah, as I say - the first 2 Tests of that Australia series in 1978 saw a full-strength WI XI against a non-Packer Australian one. Then from the Third Test onwards West Indies, too, picked non-Packer players only. Think it stemmed from some sort of revolt on someone's part, but can't remember the details. And they did manage a four-seamer attack in that First Test, too, as I say - but Holder got injured after 4 overs.

The Packer Schism undoubtedly delayed the forming of the four-seamer attack, yes, but it might even have happened before he even got started signing them, had Holding not got injured in 1977.

 

[Burgey]

I think it would have been formed sooner if Packer hadn't intervened. IIRC they started the 1977/78 home series against Aus with 4 quicks, but relented once they were a couple of tests up. That was the wierd series where Aus picked their non-Packer XI but WI's principled stand against WSC didn't get in the way of avenging the 5-1 drubbing first. 12months later in India they did actually pick a more obviously Packer-weakened side, so didn't consistently see their best XI until the afore mentioned Aus series in 1979/80.

As for the spinners, the state of their mid70's guys can be guaged by the fact that they even brought back David Holford at one stage - possibly for a test against Pakistan in 1977?

I vividly remember going to the SCG in 79/80 and again in 81/82, watching both tests and ODIs. I think that WI team is one of the greatest sides ever to have played cricket. They were amazing.

Forgive the following reminiscence on my part:

The Sydney test in 81/82 stands out for a number of reasons for me. I went with my grandfather for I think 3 or 4 of the days. He was one of those blokes who knew everyone, no matter where you went, and as he was walking in one morning we ran into Davo (Alan Davidson) so as an 11 year old I had to stand there for 30 minutes listening to them talk about the old days and have a beer. If only I'd been smart enough to have paid more attention.

We sat on the hill/ outer ground, which back then extended right under the Bradman Stand. We went behind the bowler's arm at the Paddington end for a time, then went and sat on the Hill, where I was standing right behind John Dyson when he took THAT catch from Sylvester Clarke off Bruce Yardley. An amazing grab, for those you you who've seen it replayed over the years.

Late on one of the days it rained or there was bad light and the players went off, so we went to leave (it was getting on in the day). Next thing, the players re-emerge and we decided to go back in, but this time we got into the top deck of the then brand new Brewongle Stand (for free - no one on the gate as it was late) which I think had not long been open - it was a step up from the Hill, I can tell you. While we were up there, Bruce Yardley, who was an exceptional gully fieldsman, took an absolute screamer to dismiss Gordon Greenidge off Lillee for less than 10. If anything, this was a better catch than Dyson's to my young eyes.

Of course, this was during Greg Chappell's horror run, and I remember in the second innings, after he got 12 in the 1st innings, he was caught behind 1st ball off Colin Croft from a ball which (as they always did with Croft) angled in, then pitched and moved away - an absolute jaffa which he did well to hit. Dyson made a gutsy ton which saved the game for Australia. Dujon played in that game purely as a batsman, and their line-up was Greenidge, Haynes, Richards, Gomes, Lloyd, Dujon, Murray, Holding, Croft, Clarke & Garner. Holding took 5 for sfa in the first innings, but I can't recall whether at that stage he was still off the long run, though he certainly was in 1979-80 when I saw him at the SCG in a ODI, and it seemed to me that he was going to walk out of the ground at the Randwick end, his run up was so long. Kids were asking their parents where he was going!

But the best part of the whole adventure for me was that when the WI started their second innings Joel Garner came to the outer ground to sign autographs for the kids. I got to meet him in the old Bob Stand (where the Bill O'Reilly is now), which was part of the outer ground - to think you could pay about $10 or less then, and have access to over half the ground!! I remember standing next to him, and I reckon I was hip-height to him, and I said (as stupid kids sometimes do) "Dont you get tired of looking down at everyone?" He just threw his head back, had a chuckle and said "No man. I don't think about it". Then he sat and chatted with the kids for a while.

That a legend like him took time out to make a kid's day at the cricket is something I've never forgotten. To think that he actually went out onto the Hill to mix with people - something anathema to the modern stars, by and large, who are kept insulated from the fans to a large extent, and many of whom seem to regard as an imposition. A champion and a champion bloke to boot.

Oh the past - leave me alone!!!

 

[Richard]

Haha, Bird - legend.

 

[wpdavid]

I vividly remember going to the SCG in 79/80 and again in 81/82, watching both tests and ODIs. I think that WI team is one of the greatest sides ever to have played cricket. They were amazing.

Forgive the following reminiscence on my part:

Forgiven

Thanks for that, it was a great read.

How much of a shock was 1979/80 in Aus? Presumably you knew their bowling was stronger than the last time they came over there, but did people realise just how great that attack was before the series started? Ditto Richards' batting? Obviously he'd made loads of runs in England, but I'm guessing that the Aus media didn't particularly rate the mid70's English attack and downplayed his performances accordingly.

 

[Fiery]

I vividly remember going to the SCG in 79/80 and again in 81/82, watching both tests and ODIs. I think that WI team is one of the greatest sides ever to have played cricket. They were amazing.

Forgive the following reminiscence on my part:

The Sydney test in 81/82 stands out for a number of reasons for me. I went with my grandfather for I think 3 or 4 of the days. He was one of those blokes who knew everyone, no matter where you went, and as he was walking in one morning we ran into Davo (Alan Davidson) so as an 11 year old I had to stand there for 30 minutes listening to them talk about the old days and have a beer. If only I'd been smart enough to have paid more attention.

We sat on the hill/ outer ground, which back then extended right under the Bradman Stand. We went behind the bowler's arm at the Paddington end for a time, then went and sat on the Hill, where I was standing right behind John Dyson when he took THAT catch from Sylvester Clarke off Bruce Yardley. An amazing grab, for those you you who've seen it replayed over the years.

Late on one of the days it rained or there was bad light and the players went off, so we went to leave (it was getting on in the day). Next thing, the players re-emerge and we decided to go back in, but this time we got into the top deck of the then brand new Brewongle Stand (for free - no one on the gate as it was late) which I think had not long been open - it was a step up from the Hill, I can tell you. While we were up there, Bruce Yardley, who was an exceptional gully fieldsman, took an absolute screamer to dismiss Gordon Greenidge off Lillee for less than 10. If anything, this was a better catch than Dyson's to my young eyes.

Of course, this was during Greg Chappell's horror run, and I remember in the second innings, after he got 12 in the 1st innings, he was caught behind 1st ball off Colin Croft from a ball which (as they always did with Croft) angled in, then pitched and moved away - an absolute jaffa which he did well to hit. Dyson made a gutsy ton which saved the game for Australia. Dujon played in that game purely as a batsman, and their line-up was Greenidge, Haynes, Richards, Gomes, Lloyd, Dujon, Murray, Holding, Croft, Clarke & Garner. Holding took 5 for sfa in the first innings, but I can't recall whether at that stage he was still off the long run, though he certainly was in 1979-80 when I saw him at the SCG in a ODI, and it seemed to me that he was going to walk out of the ground at the Randwick end, his run up was so long. Kids were asking their parents where he was going!

But the best part of the whole adventure for me was that when the WI started their second innings Joel Garner came to the outer ground to sign autographs for the kids. I got to meet him in the old Bob Stand (where the Bill O'Reilly is now), which was part of the outer ground - to think you could pay about $10 or less then, and have access to over half the ground!! I remember standing next to him, and I reckon I was hip-height to him, and I said (as stupid kids sometimes do) "Dont you get tired of looking down at everyone?" He just threw his head back, had a chuckle and said "No man. I don't think about it". Then he sat and chatted with the kids for a while.

That a legend like him took time out to make a kid's day at the cricket is something I've never forgotten. To think that he actually went out onto the Hill to mix with people - something anathema to the modern stars, by and large, who are kept insulated from the fans to a large extent, and many of whom seem to regard as an imposition. A champion and a champion bloke to boot.

Oh the past - leave me alone!!!

Enjoyed that piece of nostalgia Burgey...good read. Memories of my autograph-hunting days as a youngster came flooding back...I could even hear the clanging of beer cans being banged together to chants of "Hadlee!....ch..ch..ch!".

Good stuff

 

[Burgey]

Forgiven

Thanks for that, it was a great read.

How much of a shock was 1979/80 in Aus? Presumably you knew their bowling was stronger than the last time they came over there, but did people realise just how great that attack was before the series started? Ditto Richards' batting? Obviously he'd made loads of runs in England, but I'm guessing that the Aus media didn't particularly rate the mid70's English attack and downplayed his performances accordingly.

It's a little hard for me to really remember the media reaction back then, as I was only 10 or 11. Certainly though guys like Benaud had seen the Windies in 76 in England and a lot of their players through WSC, so they were rated very highly. I think the Windies pace attack got real respect here the moment Andy Roberts hit David Hookes in the jaw in a WSC match, and we'd seen a bit of Garner and Holding as well.
Richards I remember from some old magazines/ papaers came here with big wraps in 1975-76 but, whilst not really failing per se, didnt live up to the hype. By 79-80 though he was regarded as among the very best when he arrived, again through WSC. Certainly Greg Chappell mentioned that in WSC they realised how strong he was on the leg side, so they decided to bowl 6 inches outside off to him, which was like an off stump line to most players. GSC said it was the worst thing they ever did, because it made him the best off side player in the world as well.
The four-pronged pace thing came as a bit of a surprise I think, as established reasoning held that you needed a spinner in Australia to succeed. Generally though, I think that the Aussies knew they were in for a pretty hard time after WSC and seeing most of those guys.
The series was an interesting one becuase of the schism in Australian cricket after WSC. Guys like Kim Hughes (who had toured England in 77 but wasn't really establishwed at that time), AB and Graeme Wood, as well as Hoggy had to assimilate with the WSC stars, and I think it's safe to say that there was some tension there, although not as bad as it got in 81 when Hughes was picked ahead of Marsh to captain the side to England.
My earliest (and vaguest) memory of cricket was 74-75 when Lillee and Thommo were on the scene, and I've been an avid watcher ever since, but to my mind the 1979-80 series is still the best quality cricket IO've seen, and I include the 3 way ODI series and the England tests as well. Some big names in all three sides back then and iirc Greenidge dominated the finals of the ODIs vs England with a couple of 90s back-to-back. Great stuff.

 

[grecian]

Anywhoo, time to resurrect this, methinks................

 

[Richard]

Not been dead long enough for resurrection, TBH.

 

[Shaggy Alfresco]

Not been dead long enough for resurrection, TBH.

It's been dead for a while, just the corpse's been dug up and displayed on the battlements as a warning to others.

 

[Richard]

Haha, interesting way of looking at it...

As I say - I was really hoping it'd been banished, myself, TBH.

 

[Perm]

1-0 at the moment.