What is your take on pitch doctoring?

[Daemon]

There is some merit in the idea that some conditions are easier to adapt to than others, though it’s probably a futile exercise to try and determine which is the easiest.

You could probably do some sort of analysis where you measure the extent averages deviate away from home when playing under various conditions.

You’d need to somehow adjust for the relative strengths of these teams when looking at examples though - e.g. how much of it is down to the fact that one of the teams just keep producing excellent fast bowlers/spinners that make it more difficult for overseas bats than it should?

In this specific case I don’t think it’s immediately obvious thay Australian pitches are generally harder to adapt to than SC ones for batsmen. There are plenty of examples going both ways.
Maybe the argument applies more for touring bowlers, who have traditionally struggled big time because of both pitch and the ball.

This is also somewhat offset by their fast bowlers having to adapt and bowl a bit fuller and straighter when they go to the SC. Spinners struggle too - it took Lyon a very long time to figure out sidespin for example.

 

[Burgey]

My issue has always been that I'd like Aus to do it more, rather than other teams do it less. We should be doing everything in our power to make the pitches as hard, fast and bouncy as possible. Instead we went through the last decade with slow, low drop-ins. We couldn't make things less challenging for touring teams if we tried. MCG being the biggest culprit. Ironically Adelaide Oval went from being the spinny (late-game) road to being the most classical Aus Test pitch in the country when the day/nighters came in

Yeah the drop in pitches have often been dirges tbh

 

[TheJediBrah]

In this specific case I don’t think it’s immediately obvious thay Australian pitches are generally harder to adapt to than SC ones for batsmen. There are plenty of examples going both ways.

That's funny because reading your post my initial thought was the opposite. I can't imagine there would be a bigger home/away difference in batting averages than those for Australian batsmen over the last couple decades, the influence of batting-friendly home wickets notwithstanding.

My assumption would be going from Australian batting conditions to subcontinental would be as hard as it gets because at least for Asian batsmen going to Australia the wickets are generally pretty flat, eg. the Indian tour of 2014/15. Though you could argue that's a bad example because the wickets were slower and lower than usual. Whereas Australian batsmen are adjusting to lower bounce, slower wickets as well as more sideways movement etc.

 

[honestbharani]

FWIW, Ian Chappell did feel its easier to adapt to low bounce from high bounce than vice versa. But its not just the higher bounce that is an issue for players new to Australia. I think its also the pace due to the harder soil. The reason it might be considered easier at a superficial level to adjust to SC conditions is because the ball comes visibly slower off the surface thus giving more time for the batter to adjust to the lower bounce.

 

[Xix2565]

I mean if you decided illiteracy was a good idea then go ahead and engage with nothing I've posted. Is it too difficult for most of you to understand or what?

To be clear, the point I'm making is that there are certain differences in conditions across countries that while completely 'natural' (not 'doctored') can be as stark as what some claim 'doctored' pitches to be. What ultimately is within the bounds of normalcy varies and it's not really consistent what people want that to be when this topic gets discussed. I personally think it's shameless to pretend that Australia isn't a difficult place to adapt to conditions wise even if there isn't any CA conspiracy to make touring teams struggle like what people feel the BCCI has been doing in recent times. Doesn't mean that I'm making excuses for other types of pitches which take things to the extreme.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Sorry m8 you're not going to get out of this that easy, I gave you a few chances to back out by pretending to misunderstand but you kept doubling down on your insistence that it's an unfair advantage for Australia somehow

 

[Xix2565]

It is as much as spinning wickets or other examples are to the respective teams. For some reason this gets taken as an attack on Aussie cricket.

 

[Daemon]

Sorry m8 you're not going to get out of this that easy, I gave you a few chances to back out by pretending to misunderstand but you kept doubling down on your insistence that it's an unfair advantage for Australia somehow

He said it’s unfair, but just as unfair as other ‘unnatural’ (as defined by him) variables like spin/seam.

 

[Xix2565]

Being unfair doesn't mean it should never happen, part of Test cricket's attraction is the struggle in unhelpful conditions. I'm just asking for less bias in these types of discussions ultimately, because it's so easy to dismiss teams that perform well in familiar conditions by the implications discussed in the thread, which for me is unfair towards the players.

 

[Victor Ian]

He said it’s unfair, but just as unfair as other ‘unnatural’ (as defined by him) variables like spin/seam.

Nah. He's gone. Jedi has his bone now and is not letting go. This will just have to run its natural course.

 

[TheJediBrah]

He said it’s unfair, but just as unfair as other ‘unnatural’ (as defined by him) variables like spin/seam.

No he didn't lol. He repeatedly tried to claim it was an advantage Australia had that no one else did:

No I don't think so. That's no more a natural advantage than Australia going to other places that have lower bounce is an advantage for the home team

I mean one is a lot easier to play than the other, ffs. Especially when you take into account the types bowling that have succeeded in Australia compared to other places.

Australian pitches bouncing more is not a natural advantage for Australia any more than the ball bouncing less is a natural advantage for other teams whenever Australia tours there. One is not "a lot easier to play than the other", the reason it's an advantage is the players grow up getting used to a certain style of pitches and the touring team doesn't.

It absolutely is, to pretend otherwise is basically being a flat earther lol.

 

[Daemon]

The point is that it's a natural advantage Australia have that's as 'unfair' as sideways movement in other places.

^

 

[Burgey]

No I don't think so. That's no more a natural advantage than Australia going to other places that have lower bounce is an advantage for the home team

I don't agree with this tbh. It's a lot easier to adjust to lower bounce than it is to higher bounce imho.

 

[Son Of Coco]

^

None of what he is talking about is unfair though. It's the natural variation you find in different countries. I get that maybe he is saying some people claim that the fact a pitch spins more in India, for example, is evidence on its own of pitch doctoring, which it isn't, but the normal differences between countries, even if 'stark', can't be equated to the doctoring of a pitch in any way. The countries visiting still know what they are going to get as the pitches meet the expectations they have before arriving. Of course, weather variations play a role, but the only time I can recall a seaming deck playing havoc in India was in 2004 (I think!?) when the curator apparently had the ****s with the BCCI or someone else close to the team and prepared the opposite to what they wanted - I may be misremembering the exact details here, but I can't be ****ed looking it up. This is obviously still pitch doctoring but just a funnier version.

If you turn up in a country that regularly produces green tops and then find out the pitch for the 1st test is a dusty turner because the local team considers it to be to their advantage, that is pitch doctoring. Or, to use a more recent real life example, if you openly call for hard, fast decks before the series, kind of get these, lose two matches, and then call for 'results wickets' for the final 3 tests. I'm obviously being quite secretive here in the details as I don't want to openly name a team that might have done this.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I don't know about you guys but I see facebook comments and such full of Aussie casuals complaining that Indian pitches are doctored and they are cheating because they spin a lot, when they are just regular Indian pitches

I can only assume the same thing happens in India with casuals complaining that Aussie wickets are too fast and bouncy and they're cheating

 

[Adorable Asshole]

There are people who use facebook in 2023?

 

[Son Of Coco]

There are people who use facebook in 2023?

Have you read Facebook recently?

Or at any time really.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Probably mostly people over 30 tbh

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Have you read Facebook recently?

Or at any time really.

I created a fb account in 2014 but stopped using it after a few months.

 

[Son Of Coco]

I created a fb account in 2014 but stopped using it after a few months.

A very wise decision.