-
Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
The true all-rounder
- Thread starter Debris
- Start date
BoyBrumby
Englishman
It's ok, but there are going to be exceptions as with any arbitrary definition. Shaun Pollock, for instance, fits the bill and he was very much the bowling all-rounder for my money. Whereas a bloke like Tahnny Greig, who would maybe have been selected on either of his disciplines alone at times in the 70s, would not.
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah as I say it's not bad as a rule of thumb. It certainly produces some duff results (for example I would hesitate to say that Hadlee wasn't a genuine all-rounder, nor Sobers), but it's better than many others I've heard.
As I say, all-rounders are like elephants.
rivera213
U19 Vice-Captain
How about whether they would get into their respective country's all-time XI as either a bowler or batsman?
Botham- YES
Imran- YES
Kapil Dev- YES
Kallis- NO (Donald, P.Pollock, S.Pollock, Procter, Ntini all better bowlers)
Sobers- NO (Holding, Croft, Garner, Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Roberts, Hall, Ramadhin, Gibbs, Clarke, Daniel all better bowlers IMO)
Botham- YES
Imran- YES
Kapil Dev- YES
Kallis- NO (Donald, P.Pollock, S.Pollock, Procter, Ntini all better bowlers)
Sobers- NO (Holding, Croft, Garner, Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Roberts, Hall, Ramadhin, Gibbs, Clarke, Daniel all better bowlers IMO)
BoyBrumby
Englishman
No way Both would make our AT XI as a batsman and debateable at best as bowler.
Kallis & Sobers would make their respective nations' AT XI as batsmen alone for my money tho.
rivera213
U19 Vice-Captain
* Modern era I meant.
Since I (and probably no-one on here) has seen a substancial amount of footage from the olden days, we can't say they merit their stats.
Who here saw or has even seen much footage of Hutton, Hammond, Sutcliffe, Compton, Hobbs, Statham, Trueman etc.
Even Barrington?
I've seen footage of Trueman, and would put him in my all-time XI. But mainly because my gradad was a Yorkshireman and waxed lyrical about him. I can't go against a man who saw Fiery Fred live now can I? Lol.
I'd have Botham in the 5 bowlers of the modern era and batting at 6th from his career betwen 1978 and 1985.
I agree Kallis and Sobers would make their all-time XI as batsmen. Their bowling would be irreletive in the SA and WI all time XI with their great bowlers over the years.
Since I (and probably no-one on here) has seen a substancial amount of footage from the olden days, we can't say they merit their stats.
Who here saw or has even seen much footage of Hutton, Hammond, Sutcliffe, Compton, Hobbs, Statham, Trueman etc.
Even Barrington?
I've seen footage of Trueman, and would put him in my all-time XI. But mainly because my gradad was a Yorkshireman and waxed lyrical about him. I can't go against a man who saw Fiery Fred live now can I? Lol.
I'd have Botham in the 5 bowlers of the modern era and batting at 6th from his career betwen 1978 and 1985.
I agree Kallis and Sobers would make their all-time XI as batsmen. Their bowling would be irreletive in the SA and WI all time XI with their great bowlers over the years.
Last edited:
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Botham - NO
Presumably you're saying that he'd get in as a bowler rather than as a batsman. But there are many better bowlers: Trueman, Bedser, Statham, Tyson, Larwood, Laker, Snow, Willis (in addition to old-timers such as Barnes, Richardson, Lohmann, Lockwood). There may be others who haven't occurred to me!
Better batsmen: plenty!
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Ah well I'm not sure you can write off the old-timers quite that glibly.
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Did you see much of Ramadhin bowling, then?
Uppercut
Request Your Custom Title Now!
No way I'd have Botham the Batsman ahead of Barrington, Cowdrey, Thorpe, Gooch, Stewart, D'Oliveira or KP in the middle order. Just off the top of my head.
As a bowler, I'll take Trueman, Willis, Underwood and the phenomonally underrated Higgs ahead of him- but he definitely has a good case to be included there.
Haha wait- beaten.
As a bowler, I'll take Trueman, Willis, Underwood and the phenomonally underrated Higgs ahead of him- but he definitely has a good case to be included there.
Haha wait- beaten.
rivera213
U19 Vice-Captain
How much footage have you seen of Laker, Statham, Tyson, Larwood, Trueman?
Gower, Boycott, R.Smith & Cowdrey from those who've retired definitely better batsmen and since Beefy wasn't an opener, Gooch as well but the others I've seen footage of I'm not sure.
Have there been any English batsman more destructive than Botham (1978-1985) that we've seen footage of?
rivera213
U19 Vice-Captain
B/W footage of (history teacher had tonnes of extremely rare cricket footage we watched in class on days off), particularly that of the West Indies.
I wouldn't put Ramadhin in the all-time W.Indies XI ahead of someone I've seen more of though.
rivera213
U19 Vice-Captain
So you decide who's the best player based completely on stats?
People who've never watched cricket can do that, unfortunately it's not that simple when we're judging cross-eras.
I wouldn't have Thorpe in the all-time XI (his average of 44 is down to his 28 not outs. He was the best of a poor bunch, but nothing special imo) and I'd only have Stewart because of his WK ability coupled with his batting. He wouldn't get in as a batsman alone IMO.
Last edited:
Uppercut
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Of course not, but it's not the same thing. Shahid Afridi's a lot more destructive than Rahul Dravid, but only one is making it into my test XI. Likewise David Gower wouldn't injure quite so many crowd members as Beefy but I'd still have him in my team every time.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
Yeah, the fact that Thorpe had that many NOs tells you quite a lot about him
rivera213
U19 Vice-Captain
Afridi is **** in the test game. He is a hack who can barely play a cricket shot and is only good in the ODI game because he slogs.
Inzamam however would've been a good comparison.
Botham could at least play some genuine strokes.
I love Gower, his conversion rate sucks for a man of his ability but (along with Graeme Pollock) there's no better looking player I've seen.footage of. Even above Tendulkar.
Uppercut
Request Your Custom Title Now!
It pretty much epitomises his Lone Ranger status. In many ways it tells you more about the team he played in than the player himself.
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Not a great deal. I have a bit more trust in contemporary reports and judgments than you seem to. Your view appears to be an extreme fundamentalist version of "history is bunk". It's a view I really don't share.
KP equally destructive and a far better player.
If he had been unable to bowl, I very much doubt that Botham would have played a single Test.
Of batsmen I've watched, I'd say the following were better:
Gooch
Boycott
Moxon
Robinson
Fowler
Broad
Atherton
Strauss
Trescothick
... and that's just a selection of the openers that I've watched.