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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

smash84

The Tiger King
Not sure if it's your intention to shift the goal posts as we go along, but it does seem like that's all you have been doing.

In the three trophies of significance he played - World Cups / Champions Trophy and Asia cup, he improves his average to 40 and SR to 107.

Has centuries against England , Pakistan and Bangladesh and half centuries against virtually every country.
It really isn't my intention, I really don't remember him being great odis and people mixing up his test and odi records. I am going with memory (could be wrong but I don't think so) and other than him whipping pakistan periodically I don't remember him doing anything significant
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Players like Sehwag and Anwar who don't even average 25 against AUS/SA two best ODI team of their era should never be considered for any AT XI . Sehwag never scored century against AUS and SA. Anwar has only 1 50+ score in 54 innings against AUS and SA .
Sehwag is at best in 4th position for opening position India's AT XI after Dhawan, Ganguly and Rohit.
Anwar will make it to Pakistan all time XI because Pak just don't have too many options. India otoh have lots of them so I am not convinced he should make the team ahead of Ganguly dhawan and Sharma
 

srbhkshk

International Captain
It really isn't my intention, I really don't remember him being great odis and people mixing up his test and odi records. I am going with memory (could be wrong but I don't think so) and other than him whipping pakistan periodically I don't remember him doing anything significant
I'd take a guy who periodically whips Pak. :p
 

sunilz

International Regular
I agree with u. People have forgotten that Sehwag was dropped from Indian side 4 to 5 times due to his inconsistency
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Sehwag at 4 is great selection for the India XI.

Agree with smali that I would take Dhawan and Ganguly ahead of him as an opener.

He did well in the 2003 WC final too. Classy knock as everything fell to bits around him. Double hundred too, of course. Whipped Pakistan regularly.
 

sunilz

International Regular
Players like Sehwag and Anwar who don't even average 25 against AUS/SA two best ODI team of their era should never be considered for any AT XI . Sehwag never scored century against AUS and SA. Anwar has only 1 50+ score in 54 innings against AUS and SA .
Sehwag is at best in 4th position for opening position India's AT XI after Dhawan, Ganguly and Rohit.
I also forgot to include Gautam Gambhir who was a massive player for India in pressure situations. He was the top scorer for India in both tour of AUS in ODI series. Also second highest scorer in 2011 WC. I think he hit 50 against ENG,SA,AUS and final in SL.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Not including his double hundred as it wasn't that good, but it was a fair achievement regardless. Also I made it clear why him at 4 is not a poor choice, the guy's problem in life was swing and bounce, not spin or field restrictions.
All well and good but it is all hypothetical as the bloke didn't actually do it as he was an opener. Putting him in a spot he's not done in an all time side is taking a punt on him, something which shouldn't be done when there's others who've actually done it.
 

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
Ganguly never been capable of batting at required run rate that's my concern about him.


Sachin
+ a rotation policy for Gavaskar / Sehwag / Dhawan / Ganguly

is my choice
 

AndrewB

International Vice-Captain
Short Lived XI (some of the best cricketers to die before their time)

Phil Hughes
Reg Duff
Victor Trumper
Archie Jackson
Frank Worrell (c, 5)
Hansie Cronje (6)
Jock Cameron (w)
Hedley Verity (4)
Amar Singh (2)
Malcolm Marshall (1)
Ken Farnes (3)

Colin Blythe could come in for Ken Farnes on a turner.

Aged XI (some of the best cricketers who lived to a ripe old age)

Arthur Morris
Bill Ponsford
Don Bradman (c)
Everton Weekes
Neil Harvey
Frank Woolley (5)
Wilfred Rhodes (4)
Alan Davidson (3)
Harold Larwood (1)
Herbert Strudwick (w)
Sydney Barnes (2)

Larwood over Bedser is very debatable but I went for the former as he adds real pace to the attack and is a significantly better batsman.
I had a go at that a year or so ago, with (unsurprisingly) similar results, though as I restricted the choice to "died under 40" and "reached 90", some of the above weren't eligible: so I had Bill Brown and Alec Bedser instead of Harvey and Davidson; and Tip Foster, Collie Smith, George Lohmann, Tibby Cotter and Jack Ferris for Duff, Worrell, Singh, Marshall and Farnes.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
I had a go at that a year or so ago, with (unsurprisingly) similar results, though as I restricted the choice to "died under 40" and "reached 90", some of the above weren't eligible: so I had Bill Brown and Alec Bedser instead of Harvey and Davidson; and Tip Foster, Collie Smith, George Lohmann, Tibby Cotter and Jack Ferris for Duff, Worrell, Singh, Marshall and Farnes.
Oh I forgot about George Lohmann! He should definitely be in the short lived XI and can replace Ken Farnes.
 
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watson

Banned
This essay about John Snow in The Cricket Monthly is pretty good, least of all because it cites our own ‘maestro’ Dave Wilson.

I’ve always had a soft spot for John Snow and put him on a par with Fred Trueman. Trueman was fantastic in English conditions but Snow was more effective in Australia because the pitches added extra venom to his already lethal bouncer.

As much as I enjoyed Duncan Hamilton’s biography on Harold Larwood, I still think that Snow and Trueman were slightly better fast bowlers. Larwood for all his pace was a little too round armed and seemed not to have the same variety.

In the perfect world, I’d have Trueman and Bedser lead the attack in typical overcast English conditions, and Snow and Barnes lead the attack on rock hard Australian pitches.


For the love of Snow

To a young lad in '70s England, he was the embodiment of rebellion, raw pace and rock n' roll cool. Forty years later, except for the pace, not much has changed.
JAMES METTYEAR | FEBRUARY 14, 2018


.........In his own land John Snow is the great forgotten strike bowler. In the wider cricket world, the likes of Sunil Gavaskar, Ian Chappell and Dennis Lillee - who rates him second only to Andy Roberts in the top ten fast bowlers of his time - hold him in the highest regard. But at home, while there is much on his "cricket rebel" persona and membership of the Awkward Squad, appreciation of his contribution to the England Test Team is meagre. His omission late last year from BBC Sport's longlist for the All-time Ashes team, is one example; David Frith's recent reminiscence of when he sat down with John Arlott and Jim Swanton to conduct a similar exercise for the Cricketer 40 years ago is another. If only from the statistical perspective, neither panel got their sums right.

Snow played 49 Tests for England between 1965 and 1976, taking 202 wickets at an average of 26.66, a strike rate of 59.5 and economy rate of 2.68 an over. Good, but not remarkable on the wickets front. In terms of averages, though, among genuinely fast England bowlers, he is fourth.

If the ICC's current ranking algorithm is applied - which courtesy of San Jose-based stats maestro Dave Wilson it is here - 70% of Snow's Tests and 76% of his aggregate wickets, were against the strongest opposition available - Australia and West Indies. In the Ashes, 83 wickets at 25.61 and a wicket every 61 balls over 20 matches puts him ahead of Trueman (79) and Larwood (64) and way beyond Tyson (32) in the wickets column - all three offered by the BBC as contenders for a place in the all-time team. On the 1970-71 Tour, against perhaps the strongest batting line-up Australia have ever fielded, his 31 wickets at 22.8 were the best since Larwood, and have not been bettered away from home since. In his four series against Australia, Snow was the leading England wicket-taker three times, and at home in 1968, he was second. Against West Indies, 72 wickets at 26.62 and a strike rate of 49.2 over 14 matches, is equally strong......

Average speed and the intent behind the aura of menace might be subject for debate, but the sheer beauty of Snow's action and approach is beyond it. For me, only Michael Holding has given greater aesthetic pleasure. Alan Ross pinpointed where that beauty lay: "When the mood is on him he makes fast bowling as natural an activity as breathing. He lopes into a gently accelerating rhythm that achieves tension and menace without evident stress."......

When I asked Frith and Bob Willis why Snow was so undervalued - and they both agree he was - both cited the Gavaskar incident and its aftermath. Frith thinks it did Snow, "almost irreparable harm".

Still pre-greatcoats, we watched every ball of the Lord's Test when the incident happened. We gloried in Snow's highest Test score (73) in the first innings, but when in India's second he collided with Gavaskar, we felt physically sick. It looked bad. It was all over the news that evening, and even my father, who had no interest in the game, observed: "Things aren't looking good for your hero." They weren't.

In fact, it was nothing like as heinous as it first looked. For Gavaskar, it was "just one of those things". Later he would choose Snow as one of his idols, and considers him "a good friend off the field" - but for Billy Griffith, secretary of the MCC, it was the "most disgusting thing" he had ever seen on the cricket field. Dropped again.

He would come back, even later in that same series, and on the insistence of Illingworth, for the whole of the 1972 home Ashes. But until Tony Grieg took over the captaincy after the Lillee and Thomson shellacking Snow so ludicrously missed, it was almost as if the powers that be were looking for any excuse to leave him out.

A Test career frustratingly so much less than it might have been, and a reputation perhaps indelibly stained.

For the love of Snow | The Cricket Monthly | ESPN Cricinfo
 

bagapath

International Captain
My Indian All-Time ODI XI

Tendulkar
Ganguly *
Kohli
Yuvraj
Raina
Dhoni +
Shastri
Kapil
Kumble
Srinath
Zaheer
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Ajay Jadeja > Raina? I think for the era he played in, Jadeja was pretty good. Don't go by that SR.
 

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