Sunil Gavaskar - Where does he sit in the Hall of Fame?

[hang on]

I actually like your argument, if not your selections. Hang on I can sympathise with you, I am beginning to believe that Ikki doesn't do this on purpose, and that sometimes he actually believes in his biases (and they do exist), but he is willing to argue for his choices.
But really very few would right now place Ponting in that highest of classes and considerably more, including me, would be willing to place Gavaskar up there.

one wonders, one supposes?!

 

[Ikki]

But really very few would right now place Ponting in that highest of classes and considerably more, including me, would be willing to place Gavaskar up there.

I find that hard to believe. Even as his record currently stands Ponting has a better argument than Gavaskar. In fact, he still has one of the most complete records of all time, despite it taking a battering in the last few years. I'd say Gavaskar is closer to Lara than Ponting.

I am beginning to believe that Ikki doesn't do this on purpose, and that sometimes he actually believes in his biases (and they do exist), but he is willing to argue for his choices.

I always have a logical reason for holding the opinion I hold, even if I value different things from different players. The fact that I choose Australians over others has probably to do with a) my seeing them more/ being more familiar and b) Australians being awesome throughout history.

hang on touched on me picking Aussies in my XI, yet none of the choices in themselves are controversial, it's just that there are many of them that people start thinking it's a biased list.

What is so special about Lillee tbh? And I wouldn't say there is a difference in class between Hadlee, Lillee, and Imran. McGrath and Marshall might be categorized in the top most bracket but the difference between them and the others is quite small.

As much as I like Imran, I can fathom all those bowlers as the greatest of all time. I'd consider it a stretch if you'd say it was Imran. Surely, his ability was great and not far off, but he is just shade under them IMO. I think I've argued Lillee's case more than enough here, but suffice to say that the discussion of "greatest fast bowler ever" rarely doesn't have Lillee in it.

 

[smash84]

As much as I like Imran, I can fathom all those bowlers as the greatest of all time. I'd consider it a stretch if you'd say it was Imran. Surely, his ability was great and not far off, but he is just shade under them IMO. I think I've argued Lillee's case more than enough here, but suffice to say that the discussion of "greatest fast bowler ever" rarely doesn't have Lillee in it.

yeah but the reasons that you point out for Lillee ring true even greater for Imran. And Lillee was BAD in the SC. Super bad tbh. That is a big hole in his resume. So it might be that he is over rated by most like Sobers's bowling

 

[Ikki]

yeah but the reasons that you point out for Lillee ring true even greater for Imran. And Lillee was BAD in the SC. Super bad tbh. That is a big hole in his resume. So it might be that he is over rated by most like Sobers's bowling

Lillee had 1 series in Pak and 1 test in SL. That's not a big enough sample to call him "super bad". Pak would have been a test for their pitches but SL was a minnow. Even so, most people, then and now, acknowledged that Lillee had the tools to do well on dead pitches that's why such a record is not held over his head. For most of Lillee's career Pak weren't a fantastic batting side anyway. Lillee was rated the highest fast bowler (the highest bowler bar Warne) in ESPN Legends of Cricket; so as aforesaid, he's always in the discussion.

And no, the point re Sobers' bowling is that the praise he received for it, and hence his being an all-rounder, didn't match up with his overall bowling record. Lillee's record doesn't have that peculiarity. It's ATG class comfortably, and even better when you include WSC.

 

[smash84]

Pakistan were a pretty decent batting side from the 1970s onwards which coincided with Lillee's career. There were quite a few good batsmen in the side Majid Khan, Miandad, Zaheer Abbas, Asif Iqbal, Mushtaq Mohammad, Wasim Raja.

And not really.That's the thing. From all evidence it suggest Lillee didn't seem to have all the tools to deal with dead pitches.

In the series that Lillee averaged 100+, Imran averaged much less IIRC. CBF checking that

Even his WSC record doesn't look that great (at least the one that is there on wikipedia)

 

[abmk]

Imran averaged ~30 in that series I think .... Lillee didn't get a wicket in the first 2 tests ( 3 innings )

Lillee was pretty good in WSC

 

[abmk]

But really very few would right now place Ponting in that highest of classes and considerably more, including me, would be willing to place Gavaskar up there.

+1 .....

I think ponting's peak gets a bit over-rated IMO ..... It was a good combination of him being at his peak, the pitches being flatter, bowling going down in those years ( him not having to face the Aus attack ) , a supreme team that gave him that much confidence to go after the bowling that lead to those years in 2002-2006 ( bar a patch in 2004-2005 where he had gone down a bit ) .....

Obviously he's a much better bat than what his performance in the past 3-4 years suggest.

 

[smash84]

yeah Ponting can now be compared to Waqar I think.

Waqar had a tremendous peak but he wasn't that great either side of the peak (one side of the peak was his starting few matches though)

 

[centurymaker]

writing off ponting already??? i'm sure he will be back and will maintain his current avg till the next ashes.

 

[hang on]

one would hope.

a poor series in saf could well see him dropped. a middling series series in saf and a middling series against india's terrifying purveyors of dibblydobblies would almost certainly see him see him out.

 

[smash84]

writing off ponting already??? i'm sure he will be back and will maintain his current avg till the next ashes.

I don't think that comparing Ponting to Waqar is an insult to either of them

 

[Ikki]

Ponting was averaging 60 after more than 100 Tests. He certainly is/was no Waqar.

 

[Ikki]

Pakistan were a pretty decent batting side from the 1970s onwards which coincided with Lillee's career. There were quite a few good batsmen in the side Majid Khan, Miandad, Zaheer Abbas, Asif Iqbal, Mushtaq Mohammad, Wasim Raja.

And not really.That's the thing. From all evidence it suggest Lillee didn't seem to have all the tools to deal with dead pitches.

In the series that Lillee averaged 100+, Imran averaged much less IIRC. CBF checking that

Even his WSC record doesn't look that great (at least the one that is there on wikipedia)

Lillee was famous for his cutters and getting wickets on dead pitches - which didn't just happen to occur in Pakistan. The likes of Marshall learned this off Lillee.

That WSC record is missing a match which brings his average down to what his overall Test average is and his SR to about 49-50. He was widely lauded as the best bowler in that tournament, which is regarded by those that played in it the highest level of cricket they ever played.

Re Pak batting, you're right, they were pretty good actually. Brain fart.

Anyway, I remember Matt giving an excerpt about Lillee's tour of Pakistan:

Some excerpts about what Lillee had to say about that series in Pakistan, in his 2003 autobiography:
"The opening Test was staged at the National Stadium in Karachi and warning bells began to ring... Good lbw decisions were being knocked back, not one or two but six or seven early on. We had been told Javed [Miandad] had been out lbw only a couple of times in his entire career in Pakistan, a remarkable statistic... I must have had Zaheer out several times. He was badly out of touch but must have realised that as long as he kept his pads in front he would be fine. It was a nightmare because the wicket was so slow it wasn't carrying. Having a batsman caught in the slips or behind was almost impossible."

"I was so frustrated at having appeals turned down that, finally, I turned to the umpire and asked how I was going to get a wicket. He looked me in the eye and said, "If you knock the wickets over, Mr Lillee, I will have to give him out".

"[At the second test] Greg used all 11 of us as bowlers in that match, even Rod Marsh, who bowled 10 overs".

"Two nights before the [Third] Test... I had a very hot curry. The effects of the meal hit me within a few hours of getting back to the hotel. Greg [Chappell] was very concerned and somehow got hold of a doctor in the early hours of the morning... I wasn't the first nor was I the last to fall sick on the sub-continent in those days. A lot of players went down with bad stomachs on tours of India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. I was just one of many so it was nothing new to play while or after being ill... Ill or not I still bowled 42 overs in that innings and took my first wickets of the tour... As a footnote, there were three lbws out of seven wickets in our first innings while we, once more, did not get one [when bowling]. The series split was 10-1."

"It was tough but Pakistan was not all bad. I liked the different culture and I got on really well with Majid Khan. He remains a great mate from the game, as do Wasim Raja and Imran."

Now obviously a player using an autobiography to blame everyone but themselves for poor form is not a new or rare occurrence, but he makes some interesting points, IMO.

 

[smash84]

"Now obviously a player using an autobiography to blame everyone but themselves for poor form is not a new or rare occurrence"

awta.

An average of 101 explained only by the umpiring? Maybe his cutters were not that great on the roads?

 

[centurymaker]

I don't think that comparing Ponting to Waqar is an insult to either of them

ok fair enough.

 

[kyear2]

TBH only the following guys can have a strong claim at being the best after bradman-
sobers, viv, tend, lara and maybe chappell.

I would personally add Hobbs, Hutton, Hammond and Headley to that list, and yes possibly Gavaskar, not totally sure though

 

[weldone]

"Now obviously a player using an autobiography to blame everyone but themselves for poor form is not a new or rare occurrence"

awta.

An average of 101 explained only by the umpiring? Maybe his cutters were not that great on the roads?

Yes, especially when his teammate some unknown R J Bright (a spin bowler) took 15 wickets @ 18.87 in the same series given the same umpiring...

The fact that a spin bowler from the same team did so well proves that the main issue was not umpiring, but the pitches.

 

[centurymaker]

I would personally add Hobbs, Hutton, Hammond and Headley to that list, and yes possibly Gavaskar, not totally sure though

tbh very few would pick any of these guys ahead of the 4/5 i mentioned.

 

[kyear2]

As far as the bowlers are concerned, I would go with Marshall, Mcgrath, Hadlee, Trueman, Ambrose, Barnes and even though I dont always agree, Possibly Lillee. Thats my top tier, though always want to add Donald to that list, not quite sure if he belongs there.

 

[smash84]

Yes, especially when his teammate some unknown R J Bright (a spin bowler) took 15 wickets @ 18.87 in the same series given the same umpiring...


The fact that a spin bowler from the same team did so well proves that the main issue was not umpiring, but the pitches.

I think nobody in that series averaged sub 20 but I think you are right that the spinners dominated