Sunil Gavaskar vs Allan Border

[CricketFan90s]

Border is an underrated bat so glad that posters like Burgey are there to make his case.

Border and Gavaskar are like Apple and Oranges, Gavaskar is an Opening Batsmen and Border was a Lower Middle Order Batsmen.
Border better Captain
Border better part time Bowler
Both set World Record for Most Runs

 

[Flem274*]

It's no statistical coincidence there are far more 50+ averaging middle order players than openers post WWII, and especially since the fast bowling explosion of the 1970s.

It's the worst job in cricket. They go in cold against the best pace bowling opportunity of the game. They're almost the most valuable player to have (you need 20 wickets so you'd take a good bowler first) and while there are many struggling sides with a good bowler or two, I don't think I've ever seen a strong test side without competent openers. All the bad teams excel at losing two quick wickets.

You could argue that the better test sides right now have meh openers, but before Warner fell off a cliff Warner/Khawaja, Rohit/Rahul and Conway/Latham function pretty well in the context of this extremely bowler dominant era and England won a few games once their openers stopped pretending to be good batsmen and just swung at everything. Before then I'm thinking maybe Pakistan in 2016 briefly?

 

[Zinzan]

AB was great, but not quite Gavaskar's level.

 

[shortpitched713]

I respectfully disagree specifically with Len Hutton. He faced great pace vs Australia when they had : Lindwall, Miller, Bill Johnston and Ian Johnson (spinner). Then he would've faced decent spin from the WI in the form of Ramadhin and Valentine. And one can point to a few series vs both attacks where Hutton did well, despite his horrific war injury.

Well putting aside that spinners were always good ( so Hutton wouldn't get any more credit than Sutcliffe or Hobbs on that front), I actually do give Hutton more credit than the others. That's why I would say, that in a modern context he would be a better opener than either of them.

However, we have to understand that it's on a continuum, from the earlier periods being ones in which you are only facing a really good new ball quick once in rare blue moon to the 70s where you get to a point where every competitive Test nation has quality quick seamers that can get great effect out of the new ball. Hutton was dominating somewhere in a middle period of that evolution, but truthfully asides for the occassions of facing Australia with Lindwall and Miller, the rest of the Test sides he faced was more similar to the older, less high quality new ball challenge.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Gavaskar was the highest run scorer with 56 avg in 1970s and Border was the highest run scorer in 1980s with an avg of 55. I will give edge to Gavaskar as Batsmen as he has to face the new ball.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Richie Benaud being an Australian rated Gavaskar higher than Border. Gavaskar was in his All Time XI and Border was rated Lower than Chappell. So the better comparision is between Gavaskar and Greg Chappell.

 

[BazBall21]

G Smith is faaaaaar from underrated on this forum. The bloke was great away but he doesn't average 40+ at home if not for ZimBang but he's seen as clearly superior to Hayden/Sehwag for some reason. Lawry was a fine batsman but had a reputation for dourness. Relatively short career that ended unceremoniously which explains why he's less remembered than the guys he's as good as. Greenidge and Boycott get their due I think. Overall, there just haven't been that many truly great openers and I think that's just random statistical variance. You had the 3 finest post War openers around at roughly the same point in the late '70s/early 80s and now Kraigg Brathwaite opens for the World XI.

Edit: At some point before Steyn broke through, guys like Nel and Hoggard would've been close to making the World XI. Ntini was a near certainty and he wouldn't make the bench for SA today.

Good take. Smith is overrated if anything. His statpadding and weaknesses are less-documented than Hayden and Sehwag's.

 

[BazBall21]

Plenty of people will think Smith is better than the likes of Greenidge, Crowe, Kohli. He isn't. He only just beats Kirsten. Kirsten averaged three runs less and he played 67% of his career in a bowling era. Didn't struggle as much at home too. Doesn't deserve to be so overshadowed.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Gary Kirsten 2 Best Centuries outside South Africa
1) Kirsten scored 153 at SCG in 2002 against Australian bowling attack of McGrath, Lee, Warne and MacGill.
2) Kirsten scored 100 at Faisalabad in 1997 against Pakistan bowling attack of Wasim, Waqar, Azhar, Mushtaq and Saqlain.

Gary Kirsten Best Centuries in South Africa
1) Kirsten Scored 180 at Durban in 2000 against Srilankan bowling attack of Vaas and Murali.

All other Centuries came against a decent bowling attacks like faced by Graeme Smith.

 

[honestbharani]

@BazBall21 must be a former England captain that was retired by Smith in one of his visits.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Plenty of people will think Smith is better than the likes of Greenidge, Crowe, Kohli. He isn't. He only just beats Kirsten. Kirsten averaged three runs less and he played 67% of his career in a bowling era. Didn't struggle as much at home too. Doesn't deserve to be so overshadowed.

Nasser Hussain saw Kirsten but he don't mention in the discussion

 

[BazBall21]

@BazBall21 must be a former England captain that was retired by Smith in one of his visits.

I thought they’d never find out

 

[CricketFan90s]

I thought they’d never find out

@BazBall21 who are your best openers from 1990-2009 ? as you are an retired english captain and give justification for choosing them

 

[Anil]

Both highly accomplished

Purity of technique (pace and spin) - Gavaskar
Hunger for runs - Gavaskar
Better at batting according to the needs of the game/team - Border
Grit - Border
Bigger prick - tough one, Gavaskar probably edges it...?

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Maybe Border since I don't think he's ever tried to forfeit the match because he was dismissed.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Both highly accomplished

Purity of technique (pace and spin) - Gavaskar
Hunger for runs - Gavaskar
Better at batting according to the needs of the game/team - Border
Grit - Border
Bigger prick - tough one, Gavaskar probably edges it...?

Both were World Record Run Scorers, as a Batsmen Gavaskar and as a Cricket Player it’s definitely Border.

 

[Burgey]

I was talking to renowned CW poster and my good friend @silentstriker the other day and we were talking about the Chennai tied test series in 86, and I still reckon that series was an almost miraculous performance by that Aus side. I genuinely don't know how a team with Geoff Marsh, Greg Ritchie, Tim Zoehrer, Greg Dyer, Greg Matthews and Ray Bright in it managed to draw a series away in India. Plus Steve Waugh pre-89 was cod ordinary as well.

 

[ashley bach]

I was talking to renowned CW poster and my good friend @silentstriker the other day and we were talking about the Chennai tied test series in 86, and I still reckon that series was an almost miraculous performance by that Aus side. I genuinely don't know how a team with Geoff Marsh, Greg Ritchie, Tim Zoehrer, Greg Dyer, Greg Matthews and Ray Bright in it managed to draw a series away in India. Plus Steve Waugh pre-89 was cod ordinary as well.

Yeah that's a motley crew alright, **** knows how they drew a series there. Only thing that I can possibly think of is the great AB carried them.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Too many Gregs

 

[Burgey]

Jones, Border and Boon in Chennai all made tons. Boon was probably the most consistent batsman for Aus that tour. Border made runs as well. FMD Even Geoff Marsh made a ton and Dave Gilbert played in two tests. Tim Zoehrer even scored a 50. Jesus Christ it's like one of those videos where they give the special needs mascot at a high school basketball game a run on court and he knocks down a three pointer.

There's some blokes on that tour who played out of their skins compared with what they did in the rest of their careers. Matthews averaged 45 with the bat, which isn't hugely surprising cos he was actually a good bat, but 14 wickets at 29 was a good all round effort tstl. Jones, of course, was immense, and actually did it outside a dead rubber for a change.