Ross Taylor likely to be shafted from the captaincy?

[banquetbear]

...and lets just be clear on exactly what Richard Boock said. This wasn't some "internet blowhard" on a forum. He claimed that:

-sources in the team had informed him that Taylor had lost the dressing room.
-that he was abusive, swearing at individual members and that the abuse was worthy of going to the employment court.

There was a directed campaign to attack Taylor's character and was only one of many that came out in a rush after Taylor got dumped. They have not been backed up by anyone else. They clearly came from the camp, from a player that Taylor has to play with now. And from all the evidence gathered since then, were flat out lies and/or half truths.

 

[Hurricane]

Any moves to get accountability should be done through the appropriate processes and with minimal publicity. Why? The whole thing must be ****ing with Taylor's mind - at this rate I will be shocked if he makes any runs in England.
The arguments do not need to be played out in public - only the final decisions to replace people. And btw if they (Parker and co) get control hesson is toast.

 

[Bahnz]

...did I say sack the coach? No I didn't.

You said that Hesson and White were directly responsible for the shambles, heavily implying that you wanted them canned. If this is a misinterpretation of what you were saying then I apologise.

This isn't about "who hates who." Its about a completely disfunctional organization that keeps making disfunctional decisions. I'm not sure why you are happy for them to continue.

I agree it's not about who hates who. That's what I've said several times. And I've also said I'm not happy for "them" (I presume you mean the senior leadership of the NZC) to continue. I'm not sure where you're getting any of this from.

Look, if this report were attacking NZC over it's investment policies, or its Board appointments or its management of the media, then I'd be right behind them. But it isn't. The stuff that's been made public primarily focussed on how McCullum and co. have wronged Taylor and co. If doesn't really comment much on the NZC at all, besides stating that it was a bad decision to appoint Hesson if he was determined to replace Taylor with McCullum.

It was an accomplishment. We nearly lost it. Zimbabwe played well. I'm not of the mindset that the test teams are all that far apart. NZ got destroyed by South Africa this season and a few weeks later we are matching it with England. When we beat Zimbabwe NZ Cricket was in an extremely bad state and it was a victory the team needed.

I'm sorry, then you're just wrong. Zimbabwe are an appalling cricket side, barely better than a good club team. Bangladesh aren't much better. There's a reason why they never beat the top 8 sides. It's because they are vastly inferior cricket teams (at least in test cricket). The differences between SA and ENG, and ENG and NZ are nothing compared to the distance between even Zim and the major cricket playing nations (especially in tests). If New Zealand had lost that match, it would've been the lowest moment in NZ test history since 26ao.

And lets not pretend that McCullum is "the second coming" like is being portrayed at the moment because he won a one day series and drew a test series.

I never said that it was. Significant problems remain with the side and I've been keen to acknowledge that. But I don't think McCullum's captaincy is one of those significant problems.

Cite?

"Sources close to Taylor and others who have been part of the team in various roles say this was in fact the older players - McCullum, Mills, Oram and Vettori - saying he would not drink with them in the bar. One young player, who shall remain nameless, objected to the continual ridicule he got from this group of older players for wanting to practice more. "

"McCullum is mostly injured and appears to want to play on his terms"

Cite?

Always felt Brendon was the better candidate but Hesson is going to find it hard to take it off Ross and give it to a guy everyone knows is a close compadre of his.

Brendon to me reads the game better, is more open to being willing to lose a game to win a game (lord knows we're good at doing the former anyway) and giving him the responsibility could have brought the best out in him. Speaks better, better with the media, etc etc

Also, wholly unconvinced by Ross Taylor as Captain. Taking too much on his shoulders, I feel.

I wonder if Ross loses the captaincy before NZ's home summer. He's trying to be rational about our ****ness in a Wellalbidarned way, but I doubt the average fan will stand for a starfish who just keeps taking this with what they'll quickly perceive as 'I got mine' conceit.

This is just awful captaincy from Taylor. Undoing a lot of the good will he earnt with his first innings knock.

Taylor isn't a terrible captain.

The report isn't the cause of the divisive bull***. New Zealand Cricket's decision to cover this incident up, close up shop and not answer questions is the cause of this divisive bull***. You are blaming the wrong person. There is some serious empire building going on right now and it will end up with NZ Cricket going bankrupt unless a stop is put to it.

I'll say it again. The report is not the problem. Just last week NZ Cricket blacklisted Radio Sport because they refused to be muzzled in the questions they asked Bob Carter. NZ Cricket is the problem, not those who are asking the questions.

Again, I'm not saying that the report is the cause of the divisive bull****. Nor am I giving the thumbs up to the NZC for how they handled the Taylor affair. My point, from the start, has been that airing the dirty washing of the players (e.g. internal factions within the team, accusations of bullying on both sides, accusations that cetain players are only looking out for themselves and their mates) isn't going to help the team. Nor do I think it will shine a light on the behaviour of the NZC.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

You said that Hesson and White were directly responsible for the shambles, heavily implying that you wanted them canned. If this is a misinterpretation of what you were saying then I apologise. But I don't think it is.

If Hesson and co to openly admitted that they ****ed up and apologised to Ross that'd be acceptable. Accountability doesn't always mean punishment, it's just about transparency.

 

[banquetbear]

You said that Hesson and White were directly responsible for the shambles, heavily implying that you wanted them canned. If this is a misinterpretation of what you were saying then I apologise. But I don't think it is.

...read it again. You said

"The national body's constitution is being rewritten and the board will be up for election later this year, so there is some accountability for the Taylor ****-up."

The constitution being rewritten and the board re election was always on the cards: this is not "some accountability", its the process. If there was going to be any accountability it would be on Hesson and White: and nothing has happened. That was my entire point. There has been no accountability. If things don't change: there will be no accountability.

I agree it's not about who hates who. That's what I've said several times. And I've also said I'm not happy for "them" (I presume you mean the senior leadership of the NZC) to continue. I'm not sure where you're getting any of this from.

Look, if this report were attacking NZC over it's investment policies, or its Board appointments or its management of the media, then I'd be right behind them. But it isn't. The stuff that's been made public primarily focussed on how McCullum and co. have wronged Taylor and co. If doesn't really comment much on the NZC at all, besides stating that it was a bad decision to appoint Hesson if he was determined to replace Taylor with McCullum.

Oh come on. NZ Cricket have shut up shop and aren't talking. They could have picked any of the bizzare things that have happened in the last few years and written a report about that. How about Vettori's run as Captain and "Coach?"

They had to start somewhere. In order to go after the investment policies they would actually need NZ Cricket to talk to them and supply information. They would need people on the inside. That wasn't going to happen.

I'll admit that this wasn't the "best written report." But its a free country and they can write whatever the heck they want to. All NZ Cricket need to do to stop this sort of thing happening is to stop saying that it is over when it is not.

I'm sorry, then you're just wrong. Zimbabwe are an appalling cricket side, barely better than a good club team. Bangladesh aren't much better. There's a reason why they never beat the top 8 sides. It's because they are vastly inferior cricket teams (at least in test cricket). The differences between SA and ENG, and ENG and NZ are nothing compared to the distance between even Zim and the major cricket playing nations (especially in tests). If New Zealand had lost that match, it would've been the lowest moment in NZ test history since 26ao.

:: shrugs ::

You are entitled to your opinion. At least Taylor wasn't captain at our actual lowest moment in NZ test history since 26ao: which was South Africa a few months ago. It was a good test win. There were wobbles, but Taylor took a risk with his declaration and it nearly bit him in the butt. But as captain he held his nerve and they gutsed it out for a win. You might take victory over the minnows as a given: but England came to New Zealand this year with the exact same attitude and it nearly bit them in the butt.

Zimbabwe came close because Brendan Taylor had one of those perfect days. Those days happen and if they had of won it would have been well deserved in a hard fought match where our team actually played very well. You can't just ignore those victories because you are arrogant enough to think we "deserved to win it simply because of who we are."

I never said that it was. Significant problems remain with the side and I've been keen to acknowledge that. But I don't think McCullum's captaincy is one of those significant problems.

And neither do I. But the meme since Taylor got dumped has been that he was a poor captain that didn't take risks and McCullum is an exciting captain who does take risks. The reality is that they are both very different types of captains who did well under the circumstances and with the right support could have built an exceptional team.

"Sources close to Taylor and others who have been part of the team in various roles say this was in fact the older players - McCullum, Mills, Oram and Vettori - saying he would not drink with them in the bar. One young player, who shall remain nameless, objected to the continual ridicule he got from this group of older players for wanting to practice more. "

Nothing here about McCullum being a drunk or a bully. Nothing close to the accusations made against Taylor.

"McCullum is mostly injured and appears to want to play on his terms"

Accepted. Now: was this assertion wrong? I don't think it was. He wanted to open the batting, even though it was entirely unsuited to opening, and it is only now that he is batting in "the right spot" that his batting is starting to come right again.

Originally Posted by SteveNZ
Always felt Brendon was the better candidate but Hesson is going to find it hard to take it off Ross and give it to a guy everyone knows is a close compadre of his.

Brendon to me reads the game better, is more open to being willing to lose a game to win a game (lord knows we're good at doing the former anyway) and giving him the responsibility could have brought the best out in him. Speaks better, better with the media, etc etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed
Also, wholly unconvinced by Ross Taylor as Captain. Taking too much on his shoulders, I feel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kippax
I wonder if Ross loses the captaincy before NZ's home summer. He's trying to be rational about our ****ness in a Wellalbidarned way, but I doubt the average fan will stand for a starfish who just keeps taking this with what they'll quickly perceive as 'I got mine' conceit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahnz
This is just awful captaincy from Taylor. Undoing a lot of the good will he earnt with his first innings knock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athlai
Taylor isn't a terrible captain.

Accepted that it was said on the forums.

But to be honest: a lot of stuff is said on these forums that I don't agree with: and a lot of stuff is said that is just flat out wrong. Now go back to my original statement without your qualifier: ("found on these forums") and show me the people who were openly criticising his captaincy outside of the forums before he was fired.

Again, I'm not saying that the report is the cause of the divisive bull****. Nor am I giving the thumbs up to the NZC for how they handled the Taylor affair. My point, from the start, has been that airing the dirty washing of the players (e.g. internal factions within the team, accusations of bullying on both sides, accusations that cetain players are only looking out for themselves and their mates) isn't going to help the team. Nor do I think it will shine a light on the behaviour of the NZC.

Doing nothing will not help the team. "Following the process" will not help the team. I got into a dispute with a company last year. I followed the process, sent emails, called people, and did all the right things: I got ignored. I went semi-public and it was resolved within hours.

There is going to be some blood shed over this: and there needs to be. The process is disfunctional. IT DOES NOT WORK. Want evidence for that? Ask someone from NZ Cricket if Mark Greatbatch was the Black Caps coach. The process hasn't been working since Andy Moles got the shaft. The Taylor affair is simply the last straw.

I mean seriously: do you think pretending everything is fine will mean that everything is fine? Look how well it turned out for this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690 (Warning: violence and a couple of rude words)

This stuff has to come out. How long do you think Taylor is going to play in a team where the coach won't talk to him? If things stay the way they are I can't see him lasting longer than a year in the Black Caps uniform. Keeping stuff like this quiet never ever works. If NZ cricket isn't going to take the lead, then someone else will.

 

[Meridio]

Look, if this report were attacking NZC over it's investment policies, or its Board appointments or its management of the media, then I'd be right behind them. But it isn't. The stuff that's been made public primarily focussed on how McCullum and co. have wronged Taylor and co. If doesn't really comment much on the NZC at all, besides stating that it was a bad decision to appoint Hesson if he was determined to replace Taylor with McCullum.

Thing is that it does seem to be primarily about NZC's incompetence in general, rather than the Taylor business specifically. According to John Parker in Black Caps Captaincy Saga Tip of Iceberg, Says John... | Stuff.co.nz:

The Taylor issue is becoming a red herring. Instead of concentrating on one incident, the bigger picture needs to be what's looked at - that's the overall governance," Parker said.

and

Despite dismissing publicity around the group's findings about Taylor's sacking as a sideshow to the main issue, it is also clear that Parker's group will revisit the captaincy issue if he and others are successful in gaining board positions.

 

[Bahnz]

BB, please try and refrain form negative labels like "arrogant". It makes the whole tone of the discussion unnecessarily antagonistic.

Well this is just going to keep going around and around in circles, so I'll just finish up by saying that I thoroughly disagree that the Captains group's review will achieve little else than worsening player disunity, and that if it is an attempt to enforce wider reform, it was more than a little ham-fisted.

 

[Jezroy]

The whole thing is going round in circles now.

Hopefully some change happens at the top of NZC. If the team start to perform consistently to their best (not win every time, but don't have all the nightmare days they have been having over the last 6 years or so), then I don' think anyone will really question McHesson.

But the backroom **** has to be sorted out. It appears David White is a weak leader. It appears there are hidden agendas. It appears that a lot of people on the NZC board aren't up to it.

That's what needs changing.

Bring back Martin Seddon.

 

[Hurricane]

Some of the new elements/changes in the draft constitution include:

- A skills matrix for the NZC Board which can be updated to address the rapidly changing environment.

- All Board Directors to be elected with no appointed members. Vacancies will be advertised publicly and anyone can apply.

- All Board candidates to be assessed by the Appointments Panel with the best applicants short listed for interview by the Panel.

- The Appointments Panel to comprise five people - a convenor (nominated by the NZC Board), three MA Chairmen (rotated each year from the six MA Chairmen) and one person nominated by Sport New Zealand.

- Each candidate recommended for election must receive more than 50% of the votes cast at the AGM to be elected.

- Provision to be made for remuneration to be paid to NZC Directors if the Appointments Panel recommends it and it is approved at the AGM.

Mackinnon said the main reason for adopting this governance model was to ensure NZC had the best people in key roles.

"First and foremost it is designed to attract the best possible candidates by opening nominations to all parties and having a confidential process akin to a job interview with limited scope for politicking once the Appointments Panel has made its recommendations."

"It is also important to recognise that this is only a draft and NZC invites all interested parties to comment on the proposed constitution," said Mackinnon.

Cricket community asked for feedback on draft constitution - Yahoo! New Zealand Sport

 

[Jono]

Not completely - just get rid of all the crap. That's what I do when I do poo. I don't get rid of all the stuff that makes the poo. Just the poo.

And the poo keeps on coming back.

Sounds like you need to get rid of the stuff that is making the poo.

That's fair. As long as the poo you are getting rid of is unhealthy.

There is some poo that is perfectly normal to have on a regular basis.

Yeah but if a person poos on his fellow employees then they generally get fired

 

[hendrix]

^ Come on, I know you have a photo of Virat Kohli taking a dump somewhere on your harddrive

 

[Jono]

 

[Flem274*]

Must have hurt getting that bat out.

 

[BeeGee]

Must have hurt getting that bat out.

The helmet would have brought a tear to the eye.



This thread has gone done the crapper.

 

[morgieb]

Interesting thread in hindsight.

 

[Grasshopper]

Interesting thread in hindsight.

Make mine a long black and a big slice of humble pie.

 

[NZTailender]

Make mine a long black and a big slice of humble pie.

Same. Baz has really won me over this year.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Baz's performances and captaincy have been superb. It was still a ****ing ****ty way to dump Taylor from the captaincy though.

 

[Flem274*]

Baz has made us all Tastle it, but the way this was handled will never reflect well on Mike Hesson or David White.

Not the greatest moment in NZ cricketing history, in fact it's easily the worst I've been around for. How bad this was makes the McCullum led turnaround all the more remarkable. I can't speak highly enough of how good he must be as a leader behind the scenes.

Some credit must go to Hesson too for climbing back up from this.

 

[BeeGee]

Top thread. Would read again.