Ravindra Jadeja vs Saqlain Mushtaq

[R!TTER]

The contrast for spinners, from Asia, will always be higher. It's like asking why Starc, or most Aussie pacers, in general is $hit in India.

 

[TheJediBrah]

And I'm not arguing against Jadeja as a player at all, I think he's close to an ATG all-rounder and probably one of his biggest proponents on this forum

But I can't help but call out extreme logical inconsistency when I see it. You can rate Jadeja highly as well as accept that he's had a great run for a lot of reasons

 

[ZK$]

It's not rank turners every match but the general level of spin and deterioration is more than before. Patel recently took a 10fer in the first innings which I don't think would have happened in the 2000s.

Yeah, it’s definitely been more bowler friendly than the 2000s. I do agree with most of your points in this thread.

 

[R!TTER]

As a bowler, in Asia, he's slightly overrated but across the pond especially in Eng/NZ he's also underrated because like I said the pitches over there have gone much worse for spin. If he played in the decade just post 99/00 he'd probably be similar to Herath. Then as I mentioned the biggest difference would be due to the bowling at the other end i.e. the pacers - in cricket, much like life, you will see a domino effect coming into play. Better pacers -> more effective spinners -> better bowling attack & generally a much better team. That's how it's always been.

 

[subshakerz]

Nah it's not quite equivalent. Similar theory though.

If Jadeja was averaging 20 at home, and 23 away then it would be equivalent to Smith

Also need to keep in mind that Jadeja has played nearly 2/3rds of his games at home which plays a big part, and is not the case with any of those you mentioned

Was just about to post this. Jadejas high percentage of home tests ends up giving him a nice 24 bowling average which is totally misleading.

Kind of like Labu averaging 60.

 

[Daemon]

I think it’s pretty obvious to anyone remotely objective that both spin friendly home conditions and the Indian lineup being much worse at playing spin are true.

 

[subshakerz]

As a bowler, in Asia, he's slightly overrated but across the pond especially in Eng/NZ he's also underrated because like I said the pitches over there have gone much worse for spin. If he played in the decade just post 99/00 he'd probably be similar to Herath. Then as I mentioned the biggest difference would be due to the bowling at the other end i.e. the pacers - in cricket, much like life, you will see a domino effect coming into play. Better pacers -> more effective spinners -> better bowling attack & generally a much better team. That's how it's always been.

Is Herath better than Saqlain?

Jadeja being inflated in Asia matters a lot more since he played over 60 percent of his cricket there.

Saqlain played more abroad by comparison.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Was just about to post this. Jadejas high percentage of home tests ends up giving him a nice 24 bowling average which is totally misleading.

Kind of like Labu averaging 60.

Labu is a whole different kettle of fish. He's lucky to be averaging north of 35

 

[ZK$]

Over the past decade:

Batsmen from Australia, New Zealand, and Pakistan have inflated averages.

Spinners from India and Sri Lanka have inflated averages.

Pace bowlers from South Africa, England, and West Indies have inflated averages.

 

[R!TTER]

Is Herath better than Saqlain?

Jadeja being inflated in Asia matters a lot more since he played over 60 percent of his cricket there.

Yes & if you've watched Jadeja on flat roads in India you'd observe he's outbowled Ashwin consistently there as well. I haven't watched Saqi much prior to 99/00 in tests & he was never the same bowler after his injury around the same time. If you take their careers, assuming Jadeja retires today, RJ will still be the better test bowler IMO but if you want to see Jadeja's full career alongside a possible decline we'd have to wait for a few more years.

On roads you can check Jadeja's stats at Delhi 2015, Chennai 2016, Ranchi 2017, Delhi 2017 & the next best spinner's numbers. In almost all of these games he was head & shoulders above the rest!

 

[subshakerz]

Over the past decade:

Batsmen from Australia, New Zealand, and Pakistan have inflated averages.

Spinners from India and Sri Lanka have inflated averages.

Pace bowlers from South Africa, England, and West Indies have inflated averages.

Not sure about the pace bowlers.

SA has always been pace friendly. England was very batting friendly early half of the 2010s.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes & if you've watched Jadeja on flat roads in India you'd observe he's outbowled Ashwin consitently there as well. I haven't watched Saqi much prior to 99/00 in tests & he was never the same bowler after his injury around the same time. If you take their careers, assuming Jadeja retires today, RJ will still be the better test bowler IMO but if you want to see Jadeja's full career alongside a possible decline we'd have to wait for a few more years.

Saqlain's knee injuries were around 2003/4 and he retired shortly after.

Again we go to how you weigh home performances. To me, surfeit home excellence is not proof of greater quality overall. This is especially true in a country like India with a history of home spinners with excellent figures.

 

[CricAddict]

As a bowler, in Asia, he's slightly overrated but across the pond especially in Eng/NZ he's also underrated because like I said the pitches over there have gone much worse for spin. If he played in the decade just post 99/00 he'd probably be similar to Herath. Then as I mentioned the biggest difference would be due to the bowling at the other end i.e. the pacers - in cricket, much like life, you will see a domino effect coming into play. Better pacers -> more effective spinners -> better bowling attack & generally a much better team. That's how it's always been.

This is a point that I have mentioned here before too. Especially, when India tour SENA countries, they make sure that the pitches absolutely do not favor spin to completely negate the Ashwin/Jadeja threat.

However good the opposition spinners are, I don't think they had better figures than Ashwin/Jadeja in the same series even at their home country over Ash-Jaddu career,(may be a couple of exceptions) which shows the extent to which the boards go to neutralize them.

But most of the CWers, even Indians, miss this point and just easily say that they are poor outside India.

 

[ZK$]

Not sure about the pace bowlers.

SA has always been pace friendly. England was very batting friendly early half of the 2010s.

Which nation do you disagree with? I’m just talking about the last decade so since about 2013. I agree that before 2013, England was batting friendly and South Africa was still pace friendly.

 

[R!TTER]

Saqlain's knee injuries were around 2003/4 and he retired shortly after.

Again we go to how you weigh home performances. To me, surfeit home excellence is not proof of greater quality overall. This is especially true in a country like India with a history of home spinners with excellent figures.

There was a separate injury I think around 2000, if not then I guess we're overrating Saqi's bowling quite a bit. Because after the 99 India series I don't remember anything remotely close from him in the next 4-5 years!

 

[Xix2565]

Indian lineup being much worse at playing spin are true.

This part is definitely more about other changes in the game and pitches rather than any inherent quality of players.

 

[anil1405]

Is Herath better than Saqlain?

Jadeja being inflated in Asia matters a lot more since he played over 60 percent of his cricket there.

Saqlain played more abroad by comparison.

Saqlain played 14 of his 49 tests in SENAW. 28%.

Jadeja played 22 of his 60 tests there. 36%.

 

[CricAddict]

View overall figures [change view]

Host country Australia or England or New Zealand or South Africa or West Indies

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler

Involving the player RA Jadeja (IND)

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 10

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
MM Ali (ENG)	2014-2021	8	14	242.4	24	853	28	6/67	8/129	30.46	3.51	52.0	1	0
R Ashwin (IND)	2014-2021	5	9	187.1	35	429	14	3/35	5/106	30.64	2.29	80.2	0	0
RA Jadeja (IND)	2013-2022	22	39	769.4	154	2052	57	6/138	7/258	36.00	2.66	81.0	1	0
NM Lyon (AUS)	2018-2021	4	7	225.2	45	606	10	4/178	4/178	60.60	2.68	135.2	0	0

 

[CricAddict]

Only 4 spinners have taken over 10 wickets in all matches involving Jadeja in WEANS and all of them average over 30. Substantiates the fact I have said above on boards preparing pitches negating spin in the matches involving him.

 

[h_hurricane]

I think Jadeja is a better bowler than Saqlain by not a major, yet clear margin.

If you take the average of home and away matches, Jadeja averages 27.8. Saqlain 29.7

Going by continents, Jadeja is the better bowler in Asia, Africa and Americas. Saqlain better in Europe and arguably Oceania. Some of the sample sizes are lolworthy though.

Saqlain has taken 61 wickets outside Asia at 34. Jadeja 57 at 36.

One thing Jadeja trumps Saqlain clearly is longevity. He has remained relevant for longer, which shifts the argument in his favor imo.