Ravindra Jadeja vs Saqlain Mushtaq

[Sunil1z]

Basically admitting my point at the beginning that Jedeja had all these advantages that Saqlain did not have, accounting for the difference in home numbers.

And Saqlain was crap against AUS + SA at home and SL/UAE .

 

[subshakerz]

And Saqlain was crap against AUS + SA at home and SL/UAE .

Agreed but didn't play that many tests.

 

[Sunil1z]

Yeah except they never actually played on those wickets so why reward them for hypothetical runs?

This is not how normalisation work . If someone has to penalised for doing well on easy wickets and then someone has to be rewarded for doing well on difficult wickets.

For eg . Normalised bowling average of McGrath is low and normalised batting average of Ponting is also low.

 

[subshakerz]

This is not how normalisation work . If someone has to penalised for doing well on easy wickets and then someone has to be rewarded for doing well on difficult wickets.

For eg . Normalised bowling average of McGrath is low and normalised batting average of Ponting is also low.

No need to normalize averages. Instead you should be arguing that Kohli's home average should be rated more highly like Kallis averaging 56 in SA.

Feel free to argue that if you wish. But it's not like he faced many great bowlers at home.

 

[Sunil1z]

No need to normalize averages. Instead you should be arguing that Kohli's home average should be rated more highly like Kallis averaging 56 in SA.

Feel free to argue that if you wish. But it's not like he faced many great bowlers at home.

But you don’t rate Kallis ?
Similarly there are many (like me) who don’t rate Kohli’s ability to play spin on turning tracks . He can play spin on moderate wickets but on dust bowl he is no Sehwag, Younis or Pujara.

 

[_00_deathscar]

These stats are pretty astonishing.

In the entire 2000s decade, you didn't have a single foreign spinner who took more than 10 wickets in a series in India at a sub 30 average except for Krezja in that debut test.

Since 2010, you have had eight bowlers do that, including sub-par guys like Harmer, Tahir and O'Keefe.

That's pretty ridiculous and if anything, just cements the notion that pitches have been so out of the norm spin friendly that it ends up flattering the figures of Jadeja and co.

Of course, some Indian fans will deny that and chalk it up to next level skills of Jadeja, Axar and Ashwin, but it seems pretty clear that it is not the case if foreign spinners, including ordinary ones, can take so many wickets cheaply.

India is also just not as good at playing spin anymore (definitely Pant and possibly Shreyas aside). Which bears out when those two bat and look in a completely different league to everyone else who is struggling to Joe ****ing Root.

What do you attribute Jadeja’s limited if excellent success vs Australia in Australia to then? It’s not the pitches.

 

[subshakerz]

India is also just not as good at playing spin anymore (definitely Pant and possibly Shreyas aside). Which bears out when those two bat and look in a completely different league to everyone else who is struggling to Joe ****ing Root.

What do you attribute Jadeja’s limited if excellent success vs Australia in Australia to then? It’s not the pitches.

Come on bro. It's not like India are falling to Warne and Murali. You have guys like Harmer, Tahir, OKeefe and others taking bags of wickets when they tour. It's the pitches.

Jadeja in Australia was a steady support bowler who ended up with more flattering figures than Ashwin but was nowhere near the same threat he was which is clear to anyone who saw them bowl there, excluding the 2014/5 tour.

 

[Sunil1z]

Come on bro. It's not like India are falling to Warne and Murali. You have guys like Harmer, Tahir, OKeefe and others taking bags of wickets when they tour. It's the pitches.

Jadeja in Australia was a steady support bowler who ended up with more flattering figures than Ashwin but was nowhere near the same threat he was which is clear to anyone who saw them bowl there, excluding the 2014/5 tour.

And India collapsed also to Lyon in Aus at Perth 2018 , Adelaide 2015 and Moeen Ali in 2014 and 2018 . So now there are dust bowl in ENG and AUS too ?

 

[_00_deathscar]

Come on bro. It's not like India are falling to Warne and Murali. You have guys like Harmer, Tahir, OKeefe and others taking bags of wickets when they tour. It's the pitches.

Jadeja in Australia was a steady support bowler who ended up with more flattering figures than Ashwin but was nowhere near the same threat he was which is clear to anyone who saw them bowl there, excluding the 2014/5 tour.

I'm not saying their figures aren't possibly inflated slightly cos of it, I'm just saying that's not the only reason.
We're just a much stronger unit, most particularly at home, and our pace attack also contributes so there's no respite for batsmen. That's in addition to Jadeja and Ashwin actually being better bowlers than at least most of the previous Indian bowlers, and especially when working in tandem.

 

[ZK$]

The main series we’ve prepared spicy wickets in have been 2015 vs South Africa, 2017 vs Australia, and 2021 vs England. Apart from those and the pink ball tests, it’s generally been low slow roads that deteriorate over the last two days.

If we were preparing rank turners every match, Kohli wouldn’t be averaging 60 at home and wouldn’t have scored all those double hundreds during his peak.

 

[R!TTER]

That's pretty ridiculous and if anything, just cements the notion that pitches have been so out of the norm spin friendly that it ends up flattering the figures of Jadeja and co.

You're conveniently ignoring the dearth of good spin bashing players in our top 6, if you saw the innings of Sehwag at Galle against peak Mendis & slightly off peak Murali or SRT at Chennai 99, or VVS/SRT at Mumbai 04 you would know how bad they currently are! The lot we have right now are hopeless against "lesser bowlers" especially finger spinners from the opposition!

No one plays sweep, except Pant, & very rarely do they go out of the crease expect Pujara & Pant again. So that should cover some of the allegations in your post, as it cuts both ways wrt DRS (or pitches) working in our favor & slightly against us as well. The biggest outliers are - the pacers & the fact that Ashwin/Jadeja are damn good with the bat! This is why we've won so many games at home.

The thing with DRS is that if the teams are evenly matched it mostly levels the playing field, wrt conditions/toss et al, but if they're mismatched the gap actually widens.

 

[subshakerz]

I'm not saying their figures aren't possibly inflated slightly cos of it, I'm just saying that's not the only reason.
We're just a much stronger unit, most particularly at home, and our pace attack also contributes so there's no respite for batsmen. That's in addition to Jadeja and Ashwin actually being better bowlers than at least most of the previous Indian bowlers, and especially when working in tandem.

It's not a slight inflation though because even foreign bowlers have been massively more successful than the last decade. I concede DRS has helped but then bowlers before didn't have that advantage.

Do you really believe Jadeja at home is better and more skilled than Kumble, Bedi, Prasanna and others?

I think any of them, even spinners like Harbi or even Raju, would be averaging low 20s if they played in the last decade.

Jadeja has at least a 2-4 point inflation in his home bowling average compared to the others, which would have showed if he played in any other era. So please don't take his home numbers at face value as you all seem to do.

 

[subshakerz]

The main series we’ve prepared spicy wickets in have been 2015 vs South Africa, 2017 vs Australia, and 2021 vs England. Apart from those and the pink ball tests, it’s generally been low slow roads that deteriorate over the last two days.

If we were preparing rank turners every match, Kohli wouldn’t be averaging 60 at home and wouldn’t have scored all those double hundreds during his peak.

It's not rank turners every match but the general level of spin and deterioration is more than before. Patel recently took a 10fer in the first innings which I don't think would have happened in the 2000s.

 

[TheJediBrah]

If someone in this thread is really trying to claim that Jadeja hasn't had especially helpful home pitches then I'm glad I haven't read any of this

 

[ataraxia]

If someone in this thread is really trying to claim that Jadeja hasn't had especially helpful home pitches then I'm glad I haven't read any of this

I haven't read the thread either (or I've tried not to) but does this mean Jadeja is an ATG with bat? ????????????

 

[CricAddict]

If someone in this thread is really trying to claim that Jadeja hasn't had especially helpful home pitches then I'm glad I haven't read any of this

Yes he has had help. He has had as much help as Steve Smith, Labu, Khawaja etc. have got from the Australia batting pitches.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes he has had help. He has had as much help as Steve Smith, Labu, Khawaja etc. have got from the Australia batting pitches.

Yes which is why their home numbers shouldn't be taken at face value.

 

[R!TTER]

It's not rank turners every match but the general level of spin and deterioration is more than before. Patel recently took a 10fer in the first innings which I don't think would have happened in the 2000s.

That's only because the Indians were helping Patel bhai get the record of best bowling figures in a loss - which previously belonged to Srinath at Kolkata(?) vs Pak in 99

And you've again ignored the point that we have a bunch of imbeciles against spin in the top 6, the likes of Sehwag/SRT/VVS/Ganguly or even GG would at least step out to disrupt the bowler's lengths! These guys are even sacred to take a foot outside their crease or get back in, to play on the backfoot.

You can also attribute the generally declining ability to play quality spin down to 2 new balls & batting paradises in ODI, you can't be telling me that Eng's fortunes (in LO) changed just because of an "attitude" change

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yes he has had help. He has had as much help as Steve Smith, Labu, Khawaja etc. have got from the Australia batting pitches.

Nah it's not quite equivalent. Similar theory though.

If Jadeja was averaging 20 at home, and 23 away then it would be equivalent to Smith

Also need to keep in mind that Jadeja has played nearly 2/3rds of his games at home which plays a big part, and is not the case with any of those you mentioned (not really sure why they are relevant to the discussion at all anyway but ok)

 

[subshakerz]

That's only because the Indians were helping Patel bhai get the record of best bowling figures in a loss - which previously belonged to Srinath at Kolkata(?) vs Pak in 99

And you've again ignored the point that we have a bunch of imbeciles against spin in the top 6, the likes of Sehwag/SRT/VVS/Ganguly or even GG would at least step out to disrupt the bowler's lengths! These guys are even sacred to take a foot outside their crease or get back in, to play on the backfoot.

You can also attribute the generally declining ability to play quality spin down to 2 new balls & batting paradises in ODI, you can't be telling me that Eng's fortunes (in LO) changed just because of an "attitude" change

No doubt the previous gen were better players of spin but they also faced better quality spinners than this lot too.