Ravindra Jadeja vs Saqlain Mushtaq

[Sunil1z]

I don't think so. Spinners are more neutralised on a flat-hard Australian road than on a green top. The difference is on a green top spinners are less useful when compared to seam bowling. It's not that spin is neutralised, it's that seam bowling is so effective that you wouldn't really bowl a spinner when you could bowl a seamer.

But regardless the point is most of the time you get a green wicket it's not with the express purpose of combating spin bowling

So when you don’t want to bowl a spinner , doesn’t this mean spinner automatically got neutralised?

 

[trundler]

You've been saying **** like this for years and never seem to get it when it's explained to you

Not every pitch is made to suit someone. Most of the time that's just how the soil/conditions dictate it to turn out. Pitch doctoring definitely happens, but it's not the norm in most places. It's rare for a SENA team to prepare a pitch to negate spin bowling, I can't recall it ever happening in a game I've seen though I'm sure it probably has. I don't follow NZ test cricket (obviously, yawn) so maybe it's happened there I don't know.

NZ and SA intentionally don't play India on their spin friendly pitches like Durban and the Mount. BD get a consolation test there but not India and it's obvious why. Also, c'mon, Australia have doctored wickets to nerf the great West Indian attacks and to expose SA's weakness against Warne and McGill. Faf openly used to moan about not getting the pitches he wanted at home. Fairly certain they made flat roads last summer in England for Bazball too. So yeah, every SENA country, like everywhere else, 'doctors' pitches to suit its players.

 

[Bolo.]

Never.

Sangakkara batted in the easiest conditions of his time and Murali bowled on the most helpful wickets of his time. This is undisputed CW fact.

It's not just spinners. All sorts of conditions can be helpful to bowlers of a particular style, while still being good for batting on the whole.

 

[R!TTER]

NZ, Eng do prepare greentops to generally bowl opposition out on the first day and then bat on the second/third days when the pitch would be best for batting. Come on it's not even a debate, the 2014/18 tests at Lord's were easily the greenest tracks post 2k & we've had a fair few of them when playing in Eng!

 

[Flem274*]

NZ and SA intentionally don't play India on their spin friendly pitches like Durban and the Mount. BD get a consolation test there but not India and it's obvious why. Also, c'mon, Australia have doctored wickets to nerf the great West Indian attacks and to expose SA's weakness against Warne and McGill. Faf openly used to moan about not getting the pitches he wanted at home. Fairly certain they made flat roads last summer in England for Bazball too. So yeah, every SENA country, like everywhere else, 'doctors' pitches to suit its players.

The Mount is attritional more than spin friendly. It's probably the best spot outside Dunedin or the slower Seddon Park clay for an Asian side though I agree.

India specifically don't get the Mount because we take them to our bigger cities - Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch - to get the crowd in.

Pakistan have played at the Mount. Sri Lanka seem to live at Hagley Oval, maybe because it's funny.

 

[Sunil1z]

I have no problem with pitch doctoring. Otherwise Test would start to look like modern ODI . A team should be prepared for all sort of challenges. There is a reason only AUS 00 and WI 80s are considered ATG test sides

 

[trundler]

The Mount is attritional more than spin friendly. It's probably the best spot outside Dunedin or the slower Seddon Park clay for an Asian side though I agree.

India specifically don't get the Mount because we take them to our bigger cities - Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch - to get the crowd in.

Pakistan have played at the Mount. Sri Lanka seem to live at Hagley Oval, maybe because it's funny.

Right, that makes sense too but I've seen BD get more spinny pitches on average in NZ and SA. I think Taijul and Harmer, both second spinners, took big hauls when Bangladesh last toured SA but the last 2 series India played in SA had pitches so green they'd instantly fix Philander's knee.

 

[Flem274*]

Right, that makes sense too but I've seen BD get more spinny pitches on average in NZ and SA. I think Taijul and Harmer, both second spinners, took big hauls when Bangladesh last toured SA but the last 2 series India played in SA had pitches so green they'd instantly fix Philander's knee.

I'll take your word for it on SA. Good reference too.

The Mount gets the New Year's test so they might have been our 'blockbuster' a couple times? Last Indian tour was late summer because we were in Aus that year.

Hamilton and Dunedin are slower decks, and Bangers would have played there a lot. They've also had their fair share of Hagley and Basin medicine.

India at the Mount over New Year would be pumping so if schedules align it will happen.

 

[Sunil1z]

Recently when IND toured NZ for ODI/T20 , Fleming and Zaheer were having a laugh about pitches

Fleming: Whenever we tour India we get spin friendly pitches having little assistance for Fast bowlers

Zaheer : When I toured NZ in 2002, you didn’t give Vettori a single over in 2 Test

Both then started ??

 

[Bolo.]

NZ and SA intentionally don't play India on their spin friendly pitches like Durban and the Mount. BD get a consolation test there but not India and it's obvious why. Also, c'mon, Australia have doctored wickets to nerf the great West Indian attacks and to expose SA's weakness against Warne and McGill. Faf openly used to moan about not getting the pitches he wanted at home. Fairly certain they made flat roads last summer in England for Bazball too. So yeah, every SENA country, like everywhere else, 'doctors' pitches to suit its players.

Durban stopped getting high profile tours for financial reasons. India got a game there a couple of tours ago, but attendance has been massively down in Durban for many years. The big money teams have all been playing JHB, Cent and Cape Town. If a 4 match tour, they get a game somewhere else as well. You aren't exactly wrong in the comment, cos Faf did talk about wanting to do this, but it didn't happen.

Pitch doctoring is another story. Happening much less these days, but that's only cos RSA kept losing when they tried too hard to doctor.

 

[h_hurricane]

Team achievement are more important than stats .
As long as these players help India to win , we shouldn’t be bothered about stats.
Don’t behave like Ramiz Raja ?

I was making a point in contrary to what I think you thought I did. Players retiring early at 27 like Saqlain have a natural advantage of not going through a period when they are found out or their skills decline, which kind of protects their stats in comparison to a player who played until 35 or so and hence had to go through a wider set of challenges (not just the conditions they play but also the player's own fitness). Hence I would rate the player who played longer higher, provided other aspects are more or less the same. It was just satire not framed well.

 

[h_hurricane]

Recently when IND toured NZ for ODI/T20 , Fleming and Zaheer were having a laugh about pitches

Fleming: Whenever we tour India we get spin friendly pitches having little assistance for Fast bowlers

Zaheer : When I toured NZ in 2002, you didn’t give Vettori a single over in 2 Test

Both then started ??

If he said that, Fleming was being a d**k there. He was pretty much part of 1999 and 2003 tours to India when truly flat pitches were laid out, not assisting spinners much, and hence benefited his batsmen too. There were several boring draws in both series.

 

[anil1405]

Recently when IND toured NZ for ODI/T20 , Fleming and Zaheer were having a laugh about pitches

Fleming: Whenever we tour India we get spin friendly pitches having little assistance for Fast bowlers

Zaheer : When I toured NZ in 2002, you didn’t give Vettori a single over in 2 Test

Both then started ??

Can't remember a player who played a better role than Vettori did in that series as a passenger in the playing 11.

 

[subshakerz]

Jadeja wins more matches for India than Saqlain did for Pakistan

Saqlain was an amazing ODI bowler, a good test bowler too but think he was slightly overrated in the format.

Having said that it is close - Jadeja isn’t some ATG spinner.

Kumble won more matches than Warne too. Was he a better bowler?

 

[R!TTER]

No he didn't, where'd you get that ?

 

[subshakerz]

But regardless the point is most of the time you get a green wicket it's not with the express purpose of combating spin bowling

Their point is even more absurd. They assert that Eng/NZ prepared pitches specifically to counter Jadeja

 

[CricAddict]

Their point is even more absurd. They assert that Eng/NZ prepared pitches specifically to counter Jadeja

We say that they prepare green-top pitches that negate spin completely and encourage swing and pace bowling. Have also given stats to support it.

Still, you want to dwell on hyperbole. When someone says that a pitch in India is a batting pitch, you say that they said that Kohli will score a 400 on it.

 

[Spark]

The most egregious example of pitch doctoring - in the sense that all the pitches in a series were of a totally different character than usual in a very obvious attempt to play up an advantage for the home team - in the last decade or so IMO was probably in England anyway.

 

[CricAddict]

The most egregious example of pitch doctoring - in the sense that all the pitches in a series were of a totally different character than usual in a very obvious attempt to play up an advantage for the home team - in the last decade or so IMO was probably in England anyway.

Bazball series?

 

[Spark]

Bazball series?

No. Ashes 2013 when all the pitches turned out to be very abrasive and slow. Yes I know there was a drought but it's just too cute that that all happened to take place when everyone agreed that England had a huge advantage in both spin bowling and batting against spin (having won against India in India months before whilst Australia got pantsed, and we didn't have an established spinner yet).