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Please can the ICC ban CSA from world cricket!!

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
When the words black or white are used by the governing sports body it sounds very muvh like things are about colour just like apertheid erra.
Things may be, in some ways, about colour. But not "just like [in the] apartheid era". There are some pretty fundamental differences between the kind of discrimination which you now perceive to be taking place and the kind of discrimination that was taking place then. You can disagree with "positive discrimination" all you want (and I don't offer an opinion on it) but to equate it with what happened under apartheid is frankly absurd.
 

jboss

Banned
Things may be, in some ways, about colour. But not "just like [in the] apartheid era". There are some pretty fundamental differences between the kind of discrimination which you now perceive to be taking place and the kind of discrimination that was taking place then. You can disagree with "positive discrimination" all you want (and I don't offer an opinion on it) but to equate it with what happened under apartheid is frankly absurd.
No dear sir I ensure you there is no difference. In apartheid all ethnic groups were allowed to play cricket. It's just that there was only a certain % that were allowed into the national team ccording to color (white). In apartheid there was a 100% priority given to develop cricket in white communities. In todays game like in apartheid erra too, the team has a percentage target(like in apartheid) of how many HAVE to be black. The rule is very biased because there is no limit on the amount of black talent to represent SA. In apartheid and today there is zero possibility for a team to be based 200% on merit because before merit is even considered, color comes/came into the equation. All CSA are doing now are making it more like apartheid by effectively targetting a certain race in cricket development so how do you see the 2 erras differ?
 

jboss

Banned
Apartheid Erra:
Team based on race % (100% white) or if you wish, no possibility of 100% black team on merit.
Some players go abroad as they can not make national team because of colour.
White areas priority cricket development.

Modern erra
Team based on race%(35% must be black the rest can be any colour) or if you wish no possibility of a 100% white team on merit.
Some players go abroad as they cannot make team because of colour)
Now black areas will be given priority deverlopment.

They look the same to me.
 
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zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
No dear sir I ensure you there is no difference. In apartheid all ethnic groups were allowed to play cricket. It's just that there was only a certain % that were allowed into the national team ccording to color (white). In apartheid there was a 100% priority given to develop cricket in white communities. In todays game like in apartheid erra too, the team has a percentage target(like in apartheid) of how many HAVE to be black. The rule is very biased because there is no limit on the amount of black talent to represent SA. In apartheid and today there is zero possibility for a team to be based 200% on merit because before merit is even considered, color comes/came into the equation. All CSA are doing now are making it more like apartheid by effectively targetting a certain race in cricket development so how do you see the 2 erras differ?
Oh, just a few tiny little differences. Details, really. Like:
  • People of all races may now play for the national team.
  • A bit more broadly, people of all races may now vote.
You can object to quotas (or quasi-quotas) as much as you want, and you may have a point. But to compare this to apartheid is just absurd.
 

jboss

Banned
Oh, just a few tiny little differences. Details, really. Like:
  • People of all races may now play for the national team.
  • A bit more broadly, people of all races may now vote.
You can object to quotas (or quasi-quotas) as much as you want, and you may have a point. But to compare this to apartheid is just absurd.
Not very likely if the team already has 7 whites you can forget it about it based on your race. This argument only becomes valid in the context of a team selection from scratch but becomes invalid once the team starts to get crowded with the quota number of blacks or whites. A prime example here is some of the best talent in the country that is coming up in the moment are white:
Rilee Rossouw Smuts Malan Pienaar and Elgar within the next 6 years the players that will leave are Boucher who eill be replaced by Kuhn most probably and Prince who may be replaced by Elgar and Kallis who may be replaced by Rossouw but that would be unlikely because of quotas. In fact I can see our best team in about 6 years qithout the number of quotas so I guess talents like Malan, Obus Pienaar, Kobus Pienaar and wiese are probably headed to kolpak.

Very good players to throw away.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Apartheid Erra:
Team based on race % (100% white) or if you wish, no possibility of 100% black team on merit.
Some players go abroad as they can not make national team because of colour.
White areas priority cricket development.

Modern erra
Team based on race%(35% must be black the rest can be any colour) or if you wish no possibility of a 100% white team on merit.
Some players go abroad as they cannot make team because of colour)
Now black areas will be given priority deverlopment.

They look the same to me.
Really?

Apartheid: Maximum number of non-white players: 0
Now: Maximum number of whites: 7

Can you really not see the difference?
 
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Matt79

Global Moderator
They might have seven white players already, but if you're better than one of those white players, you would have a decent shot at being selected. Under apartheid, if you were black you could be better than all the current XI put together and still have no chance of making the team. Even if the quota system is being strictly enforced, it's still predominantly a meritocracy. And that picture just gets less cut and dried when you consider of the current players in the team who are occupying 'quota' slots, most if not all would make the team on merit, eg Amla, Duminy, Prince, etc. (expect you to now discount my entire post on the basis that I obviously know nothing about the selection cases of different SA domestic cricketers).

The comparison to apartheid is exaggerated rhetoric IMO.
 

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Really?

Apartheid: Maximum number of non-white players: 0
Now: Maximum number of whites: 7

Can you really not see the difference?
Personally I think it's quite a small difference. The bottom line is, you're being left out of the team (you're being denied a job in favour of an obviously inferior candidate) because of the colour of your skin and nothing more. There's a name for that- Racism. Whatever you call it or however you dress it up, it's still racism. A comparison to apartheid is rather extreme but I can certainly see where he's coming from.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Personally I think it's quite a small difference. The bottom line is, you're being left out of the team (you're being denied a job in favour of an obviously inferior candidate) because of the colour of your skin and nothing more. There's a name for that- Racism. Whatever you call it or however you dress it up, it's still racism. A comparison to apartheid is rather extreme but I can certainly see where he's coming from.
It's discrimination, but it's not racism.
 

Pothas

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Personally I think it's quite a small difference. The bottom line is, you're being left out of the team (you're being denied a job in favour of an obviously inferior candidate) because of the colour of your skin and nothing more. There's a name for that- Racism. Whatever you call it or however you dress it up, it's still racism. A comparison to apartheid is rather extreme but I can certainly see where he's coming from.
On a theroetical level yes there is some kind of point but read Basil D'Oliveira: Cricket and Controversy by Peter Oborne if you are in any doubt that it was very very diffferent.
 
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Matt79

Global Moderator
That's like saying there's a small difference between affirmative action quotas on women in the workplace, and the Taliban's treatment of women. The degree of discrimination does matter, not just the basic fact of its existence.
 

Protean

State Regular
jboss, the majority of white people in South Africa can afford to send their children to decent schools, schools with sports fields and equipment, which means their children for the most part already have the opportunity to develop their cricket skills. The majority of Black African children do not have these same opportunities, so what is wrong with focusing the money where it is most needed? I personally fully support that.
 

jboss

Banned
jboss, the majority of white people in South Africa can afford to send their children to decent schools, schools with sports fields and equipment, which means their children for the most part already have the opportunity to develop their cricket skills. The majority of Black African children do not have these same opportunities, so what is wrong with focusing the money where it is most needed? I personally fully support that.
Because the ANC is busy ensuring that the poor are gettig poorer and that the white majority that were considered to be rich is on the steady decline. True there are a certain number of white people that can afford top education for thier kids but I certainly can not and a number of people I know can't either. BEE has also made it more difficult for whites to get work so no doubt the number of white people that will get access to top level education for thier kids will no doubt decline steadily in the next couple of years.

I have yet to see anyone here agree on my argument of the bias between the sports like rugby and cricket and other sports that were also ****ed up due to apartheid like football. Little also is being done to ensure quotas in swimming and I can tell you why with a great deal of reason why this is.

I noticed a great deal of fuss over the RWC when it became clear that we were favourites and the only reason I can see for that is that like everything else in SA, the ANC wish to be seen without working for it. If ever you wanted more proof then just look at what they did to Caster Semenia when she returned and used here as a political scape goat.

Sport is being abused a hundred times more in modern day South Africa than in the past. Everyone was happy when we won the RWC except the ANC who like(more like love) to play the race card when maximum focus is given too our sports teams by foreign media.

News just in: http://www.cricinfo.com/rsaveng09/content/current/story/440898.html cricinfo clearly seem to know why ntini will play listing the reasons as political. No focus on winning just politics as usual.
 
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Protean

State Regular
Because the ANC govermnet is busy ensuring that the poor are gettig poorer and that the white majority that were considered to be rich is on the steady decline. True there are a certain number of white people that can afford top education for thier kids but I certainly can not and a number of people I know can't either. BEE has also made it more difficult for whites to get work so no doubt the number of white people that will get access to top level education for thier kids will no doubt decline steadily in the next couple of years.
I didn't say top education, I said decent schools. I didn't go to a private school myself, but I was certainly offered the opportunity to play a fair selection of sports. Including soccer by the way. I would think it unfair for government not to focus funds where these opportunities are not available. And because of our past, this tends to be in areas and schools where the kids are, for the most part, black Africans. You may not like it, but that's the way it is, funds are limited and they should absolutely go to the most needy.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
jboss, the majority of white people in South Africa can afford to send their children to decent schools, schools with sports fields and equipment, which means their children for the most part already have the opportunity to develop their cricket skills. The majority of Black African children do not have these same opportunities, so what is wrong with focusing the money where it is most needed? I personally fully support that.
An interesting twist on this is that the number of Black Africans attending top independant schools with the best facilities have declined since apartheid.
 

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