Player of the Decade - Ponting

[Ikki]

Yeah, it's just that you don't really get many Pollock vs. McGrath comparisons. But I'd certainly factor in his batting- especially in ODIs because I think McGrath's the better bowler by a bigger margin in tests. Polly's the best ODI player of all time, I think.

In terms of batting, Kallis and Ponting are remarkably close. Kallis now averages 54.80 to Ponting's 54.79, so if Ponting is better at batting, it's not because he scores more runs. 200 test wickets simply has to be the difference here, don't you think?

But it's not that close. Ponting is quite a way better than Kallis when you remove minnows. Removing Kallis' minnows also makes his bowling look quite mediocre also. He was merely pretty handy; I just don't think it's enough to overcome Ponting as a total package. And then when you get into ODIs there's probably a bit more of a distance between them - especially factoring in WCs.

People are underrating Ponting here. His record as a batsman is even more complete than McGrath's as a bowler. Murali isn't close enough to McGrath as a bowler to compare to him, let alone Ponting.

I can get the; "well, X could have also been named"; but not the, "OMFG, why Ponting...WHY!?".

 

[GIMH]

Ponting doesn't effuse the same power Smith does. He is not at the same level on tactics either. Simply put, Smith is a greater leader of men than Ponting IMO.

On what basis are you making these claims? Again, to me these are just words behind which you are presenting no real meaning.

 

[Pratters]

Based on what I have seen and heard from fellow team mates about Smith.

 

[Matt79]

Agree with GIMH. "Smith is just a greater leader of men"? Based on the way he has led a team that has for most of the decade not achieved at the level Ponting's team did?

And lol at saying that Warne is a better captain than Ponting. Warne has only ever held the role as a fill-in, and has demonstrated on many occasions that he doesn't have the package of skills needed to fulfil the role of a modern captain.

 

[Ikki]

Top averages of batsmen with 25 or more Tests in 2000s, without B/Z:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

 

[GIMH]

Hmm, that's a different average than I got for Kallis, I must have screwed something up

 

[aussie]

Agree with GIMH. "Smith is just a greater leader of men"? Based on the way he has led a team that has for most of the decade not achieved at the level Ponting's team did?

And lol at saying that Warne is a better captain than Ponting. Warne has only ever held the role as a fill-in, and has demonstrated on many occasions that he doesn't have the package of skills needed to fulfil the role of a modern captain.

Nah man its the other way around. Look at how hollywood captained Hampshire & Rajastan Royals, clealry showed he would have been a great modern day skipper..

 

[aussie]

The way Klusener was handled at the time was remarkably harshly, some thing you don't see very often..

Check out how AUS treated Brad Hodge recently. Either way its still not a basis in which to rate Smith as a better captain than Ponting.

I would put Warne and Houghton ahead of Ponting as one day captains. I don't really care whether it is internationals or not.

Well the more you speak its clear to be you dont watch enough AUS ODI cricket, since as i told you before Ponting as an ODI skipper is a very good tactician, far better than his test match captaincy.

So it is ludicrous to rate players like Warne & Houghton ahead of Ponting as a ODI skipepr, given Ponting has displayed his tactical nous over 150+ ODIs - along with winnig many ODI tournaments with not only great players but slightly understenght AUS teams as well.

I'm sure you haven't forgotten how Ponting lead injury hit AUS teams to ODI series win over a FULL STRENGHT Indian side in TVS Cup 2003 & the ODI series last year??

 

[Pratters]

Well the more you speak its clear to be you dont watch enough AUS ODI cricket, since as i told you before Ponting as an ODI skipper is a very good tactician, far better than his test match captaincy.

So it is ludicrous to rate players like Warne & Houghton ahead of Ponting as a ODI skipepr, given Ponting has displayed his tactical nous over 150+ ODIs - along with withing many ODI tournaments with not only great players but slightly understenght AUS teams as well.

I'm sure you haven't forgotten how Ponting lead injury hit AUS teams to ODI series win over a FULL STRENGHT Indian side in TVS Cup 2003 & the ODI series last year??

I can't argue with you being demeaning towards me. It is amazing how you cannot accept that some one can have a different view point to yours. That will be it from me for the argument. Cheers.

 

[aussie]

I can't argue with you being demeaning towards me. It is amazing how you cannot accept that some one can have a different view point to yours. That will be it from me for the argument. Cheers.

I had no intention of being deaming when i said that, so my apologises if it came across that way. But when you make such sweeping statements like "you would put Houghton over Ponting as an ODI captain", its hard not to question how much you have watched Ponting's 150+ ODIs as skipper to come to that conclusion.

Everyone is entitled to their own opionion. But i can assure you that you are in very small minority if you think Houghton was a better ODI captain than Ponting.

 

[Pratters]

I have seen enough of Ponting's captaincy. Have you seen any of Houghton's captaincy, his coaching or read stuff about him though? He was a better captain in the shorter form of the game (and I am not making a distinction between OD and ODI) when compared to Ponting where I am concerned. I know I am in the minority but that is because not many have heard of the revolutionary techniques of Houghton.

I'll give you an example. There are fielders in the infield and the outfield. So what did Houghton do? He started getting his players to hit between the infield and the outfielder and take cheeky singles and twos which frustrated the other captain as he had no answer for it.

I put all the captains I mentioned in another league when comparing them to Ponting because I don't rate Ponting's captaincy as highly as others tend to do. In another era, I am sure I would be arguing like this with cricket fans over Lloyd's captaincy. Ponting falls short even when compared to the captains that preceded him, let alone the talk of him being the greatest ODI captain EVER. Heh.

 

[Uppercut]

1.89 runs surely isn't a significant difference, Ikki?

 

[aussie]

I have seen enough of Ponting's captaincy. Have you seen any of Houghton's captaincy, his coaching or read stuff about him though? He was a better captain in the shorter form of the game (and I am not making a distinction between OD and ODI) when compared to Ponting where I am concerned. I know I am in the minority but that is because not many have heard of the revolutionary techniques of Houghton.

I'll give you an example. There are fielders in the infield and the outfield. So what did Houghton do? He started getting his players to hit between the infield and the outfielder and take cheeky singles and twos which frustrated the other captain as he had no answer for it.

I put all the captains I mentioned in another league when comparing them to Ponting because I don't rate Ponting's captaincy as highly as others tend to do. In another era, I am sure I would be arguing like this with cricket fans over Lloyd's captaincy. Ponting falls short even when compared to the captains that preceded him, let alone the talk of him being the greatest ODI captain EVER. Heh.

Yea i'll admit i've never read up or heard much about Houghton being rated that highly as ODI skipper. I checked cricinfo when you mentioned him & they didn't mention much about it either.

But even if he was brilliant tactician etc. You cant rate him ahead of Ponting as a ODI skipper based on just 17 games in charge, compared to Ponting's 150+ games in charge for reasons i already stated.

Thats like saying you rate Sid Barnes as opener who played 13 tests as opener over Hayden who played 100+ tests, even if you felt Barnes had the ability to be a greater opener than Hayden for AUS.

Not smart cricket logic that..

Plus i disagree Smith is better than Ponting as a ODI skipper. They are comparable, but i would give Ponting the edge since Ponting has won things with weakened teams (as i said beating superior IND teams TVS Cup 2003 & ODI series 09).

Smith's SA team should have won the recent CT 09 & ICC T20 WC in both 07 & 09 with the talent at his disposal..

 

[BoyBrumby]

Kallis actually averages very slightly more than Ponting in the decade in question in tests, but I don't think there's too much doubt Ponting's a more flexible performer with the bat. Has a test SR of 62.51 in the noughties, by comparison Kallis's is a funereal 46.5.

 

[Pratters]

aussie I am not saying he is a better ODI skipper. I am saying he is a better one day skipper.

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah, Ponting scored his runs faster. I don't personally think that matters, but others do. You could also, if you were so inclined, bring up the fact that Ponting never had to face his own attack and Kallis by and large played his home matches on more difficult surfaces. You can fiddle with figures and place more emphasis on certain statistics but usually it's just a way of finding evidence in favour of whichever batsman you already believe to be better. The bottom line for me is that after 150+ innings, when two batsmen have scored very similar amounts of runs at very similar averages, it's usually because they're of very similar quality.

If forced to choose between them, I shall take the one who also bowls to a good standard, every time and without question.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Yeah, Ponting scored his runs faster. I don't personally think that matters, but others do. You could also, if you were so inclined, bring up the fact that Ponting never had to face his own attack and Kallis by and large played his home matches on more difficult surfaces. You can fiddle with figures and place more emphasis on certain statistics but usually it's just a way of finding evidence in favour of whichever batsman you already believe to be better. The bottom line for me is that after 150+ innings, when two batsmen have scored very similar amounts of runs at very similar averages, it's usually because they're of very similar quality.

If forced to choose between them, I shall take the one who also bowls to a good standard, every time and without question.

Rather a strange notion. Strike rate doesn't always matter, but sometimes it's crucial. Nasser said today during his commentary stint that Kallis falling early probably did SA a favour because he'd have played in his own little bubble with no thought for the match situation. I can't ever imagine someone saying the same of Ponting.

Anyway, I'd agree that Kallis is a more useful cricketer than Ponting, but he's not as charismatic a performer. Rightly or wrongly such things matter.

 

[Uppercut]

Rather a strange notion. Strike rate doesn't always matter, but sometimes it's crucial. Nasser said today during his commentary stint that Kallis falling early probably did SA a favour because he'd have played in his own little bubble with no thought for the match situation. I can't ever imagine someone saying the same of Ponting.

Maybe he would have, yeah. It's a criticism of Kallis that he doesn't adjust his game to the match situation, but there's nothing wrong with having a low strike rate per se. Note that it's equally likely that your team will be batting out time to save the match as it is that the other team will be doing so.

 

[social]

I have seen enough of Ponting's captaincy. Have you seen any of Houghton's captaincy, his coaching or read stuff about him though? He was a better captain in the shorter form of the game (and I am not making a distinction between OD and ODI) when compared to Ponting where I am concerned. I know I am in the minority but that is because not many have heard of the revolutionary techniques of Houghton.

I'll give you an example. There are fielders in the infield and the outfield. So what did Houghton do? He started getting his players to hit between the infield and the outfielder and take cheeky singles and twos which frustrated the other captain as he had no answer for it.

I put all the captains I mentioned in another league when comparing them to Ponting because I don't rate Ponting's captaincy as highly as others tend to do. In another era, I am sure I would be arguing like this with cricket fans over Lloyd's captaincy. Ponting falls short even when compared to the captains that preceded him, let alone the talk of him being the greatest ODI captain EVER. Heh.

Technique was pioneered by Glenn Turner in the 70s

 

[aussie]

aussie I am not saying he is a better ODI skipper. I am saying he is a better one day skipper.

Guys I would rate as best ODI captains and easily better than Ponting 90s onwards (from when I have started watching cricket)

Martin Crowe
Imran Khan
Ranatunga
Hansie Cronje (if we forget match fixing for a moment)
Dave Houghton
Steve Waugh
Stephen Fleming
Graeme Smith

Hmmm