Peter Roebuck's assessment of New Zealand

[Uppercut]

That would largely be based on his time at the beginning of his career though wouldn't it? I think he has been quite effective with major teams in the past. He was on top of Oz team for a while a couple years ago. Looked quite uninspired during the last test for a period though bowling outside leg.

Over the last two years he averages 35.1. Over the last four, 38.8.

One of the best ODI bowlers around, maybe that makes him seem like he takes more test wickets than he does.

 

[Bahnz]

That would largely be based on his time at the beginning of his career though wouldn't it? I think he has been quite effective with major teams in the past. He was on top of Oz team for a while a couple years ago. Looked quite uninspired during the last test for a period though bowling outside leg.

That was a clear strategy to get rid of Haddin, and it would've worked if Daniel Flynn knew how to ****ing catch, though it was a bit dispiriting to see him employ the same tactic to Clarke.

 

[Craig]

Not related to Peter Roebuck, but I don't think it can justify it's own thread, but in today's paper, journalist Peter Badel, when giving his assessment on Dale Steyn, who said he had taken half his wickets against 'cricketing minnows' such as Bangladesh, West Indies, and New Zealand.

Does he have a point or just more patronising crap?

 

[Uppercut]

Not related to Peter Roebuck, but I don't think it can justify it's own thread, but in today's paper, journalist Peter Badel, when giving his assessment on Dale Steyn, who said he had taken half his wickets against 'cricketing minnows' such as Bangladesh, West Indies, and New Zealand.

Does he have a point or just more patronising crap?

If you take those three teams out, he averages 26 over the past three years. Which is pretty incredible considering you're only looking at the top half of batsman quality he's faced and also cutting out the matches when he was at his peak. So no, he doesn't have a point and yes, it is more patronising crap.

 

[thierry henry]

Interestingly, Vettori's bowling average without Bangladesh or Zimbabwe is 38.1.

39.9 in the opponent's second innings.

That's not surprising. That's about as good as Vettori is.

There was also an article in cricinfo a while back where they compared the batting averages of players a bowler had dismissed, with the bowling average of the player. Out of all the players compared in the article (all bowlers with 200+ wickets maybe) he was dead last. The batsmen he dismisses only average like 27 or 28 on average or something like that, so in effect he's worth a negative value to the team whenever he bowls.

 

[NUFAN]

That's not surprising. That's about as good as Vettori is.

There was also an article in cricinfo a while back where they compared the batting averages of players a bowler had dismissed, with the bowling average of the player. Out of all the players compared in the article (all bowlers with 200+ wickets maybe) he was dead last. The batsmen he dismisses only average like 27 or 28 on average or something like that, so in effect he's worth a negative value to the team whenever he bowls.

If anyone could find this article it would be much appreciated.
**Thanks**

 

[thierry henry]

Link

http://blogs.cricinfo.com/itfigures/archives/2008/03/bowlers_with_the_most_highqual.php

The table where Vettori is placed last of all bowlers with 200+ wickets:


1.Marshall M.D RF Win 20.95 30.06 9.11
2.Ambrose C.E.L RF Win 20.99 29.85 8.86
3.McGrath G.D RFM Aus 21.64 30.43 8.79
4.Donald A.A RF Saf 22.25 29.27 7.01
5.Trueman F.S RF Eng 21.58 28.44 6.86
6.Lillee D.K RF Aus 23.92 30.76 6.83
7.Hadlee R.J RFM Nzl 22.30 29.09 6.79
8.Bedser A.V RFM Eng 24.90 31.59 6.69
9.Imran Khan RF Pak 22.81 29.44 6.63
10.Pollock S.M RFM Saf 23.12 29.62 6.50
...
...
50.Harbhajan Singh ROB Ind 31.40 28.71 -2.69
51.Sobers G.St.A LM Win 34.04 30.47 -3.57
52.Danish Kaneria RLB Pak 33.90 29.84 -4.06
53.Abdul Qadir RLB Pak 32.81 27.61 -5.19
54.Vettori D.L LSP Nzl 34.23 28.64 -5.59

 

[Flem274*]

*yawn* when you've finished your customary Vettori bitching...

 

[Uppercut]

*yawn* when you've finished your customary Vettori bitching...

Quiet. He makes a perfectly good point.

I'm a big fan of Vettori and he's surely a top-class ODI bowler. But I'm starting to think he's not as good as he looks in tests. He's supposed to be a match-winning spinner, but when was the last time he actually did win a match? His fourth innings record is atrocious to say the least. There's a lot of qualifications you can give to the stats of a fingerspinner, but at the end of the day he's hardly taking any wickets, and they're nearly all tail-enders. That's not the sign of a good bowler.

 

[Goughy]

Link

http://blogs.cricinfo.com/itfigures/archives/2008/03/bowlers_with_the_most_highqual.php

Strange article. Manages to have an interesting concept, good indepth statistics and analysis whilst at the same time being pretty poorly written.

 

[Precambrian]

Who's the guy in Bahnz's avatar?

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Who's the guy in Bahnz's avatar?

That'd be the Big Jesse (Ryder, that is)

 

[NZTailender]

Quiet. He makes a perfectly good point.

I'm a big fan of Vettori and he's surely a top-class ODI bowler. But I'm starting to think he's not as good as he looks in tests. He's supposed to be a match-winning spinner, but when was the last time he actually did win a match? His fourth innings record is atrocious to say the least. There's a lot of qualifications you can give to the stats of a fingerspinner, but at the end of the day he's hardly taking any wickets, and they're nearly all tail-enders. That's not the sign of a good bowler.

Thing about Vettori is those who love him overrate him greatly and those who hate him underrate him greatly, with not much in between the two.

For mine, in Tests, he is merely good with moments of greatness, but they're not thick on the ground. IMO don't think Patel would be any better as #1 spinner, Bruce Martin is kind of an unknown as how he'd go in Tests (probably solidly), and after those 3 it gets into Australia-quality spinners.

Excellent ODI bowler though.

 

[Uppercut]

Thing about Vettori is those who love him overrate him greatly and those who hate him underrate him greatly, with not much in between the two.

Yeah, i'd agree with that. I used to be firmly in the former camp but i found him very unconvincing against Australia- he doesn't hold length through his variations as well as i thought he did, and he doesn't put enough revolutions on the ball.

His major strength is his ability to subtly change pace, which makes him tailor-made for ODIs.

For mine, in Tests, he is merely good with moments of greatness, but they're not thick on the ground. IMO don't think Patel would be any better as #1 spinner, Bruce Martin is kind of an unknown as how he'd go in Tests (probably solidly), and after those 3 it gets into Australia-quality spinners.

Excellent ODI bowler though.

Yeah, i'm almost certain that not only is he the best NZ bowler available, but if he played for Australia he would have considerably more success as he'd need to bowl far less on flat decks against set batsmen.

 

[Polo23]

Pretty harsh on Vettori...somethng which should be taken into consideration is that he plays most of his tests in NZ. There is no pitch in NZ that helps spinners, our pitches don't deteriorate or break up so they normally offer minimum turn, and they are so slow even if they do turn, it is so slowly the batsman can easily adjust.

He isn't a bowler who is going to rip a side apart, but he does a very good job. If there was a Bond or a Hadlee at the other end he would be far more effective also.

 

[Uppercut]

Pretty harsh on Vettori...somethng which should be taken into consideration is that he plays most of his tests in NZ. There is no pitch in NZ that helps spinners, our pitches don't deteriorate or break up so they normally offer minimum turn, and they are so slow even if they do turn, it is so slowly the batsman can easily adjust.

He isn't a bowler who is going to rip a side apart, but he does a very good job. If there was a Bond or a Hadlee at the other end he would be far more effective also.

Vettori in tests away from home, excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, averages 38 with the ball. People come up with a lot of reasons why his average is lower than it should be, but not many hold up to scrutiny. A Bond or a Hadlee at the other end is not a luxury many bowlers have throughout their career, and the lack of one is certainly no excuse not to take any wickets.

 

[_Ed_]

Quiet. He makes a perfectly good point.

He just makes it frequently, at every possible opportunity.

 

[Polo23]

Vettori in tests away from home, excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, averages 38 with the ball. People come up with a lot of reasons why his average is lower than it should be, but not many hold up to scrutiny. A Bond or a Hadlee at the other end is not a luxury many bowlers have throughout their career, and the lack of one is certainly no excuse not to take any wickets.

As I said, he is not the type of bowler who is going to rip a batting lineup apart. Unlike the other modern quality spinners (Murali, Kumble, Harbhajan to an extent) Vettori hasn't had the luxury of playing 60%+ of his cricket on crumbling spinner friendly pitches. Warne is obviously an exception, he would have performed well anywhere.

I don't understand what you are getting at...are you trying to say he should be dropped?

 

[Flem274*]

He just makes it frequently, at every possible opportunity.

Yeah, TH is to Vettori like bond21 is to everybody.

 

[thierry henry]

People come up with a lot of reasons why his average is lower than it should be, but not many hold up to scrutiny.

QFT