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Perry average vs Men in Tests

Gob

International Coach
I don't get that point of view. If people really think there is no physical difference between men and women (even in non-contact sports) then why do they think the sports are separated by gender?
Her point was that the skill levels were at the same level (ie greatness is measured in relation to your peers). I admitted the point but my argument was that everything happened at a greater pace hence the competition was advanced in the mens game but she simply couldn't get the point

Are there any top level physically demanding sports where women can compete at the same level as men?
 

Flem274*

123/5
Simona de Silvestro and Danica Patrick have race wins in Indy Car, which is physically tough and demanding on the reflexes. I think the reflexes guy earlier in the thread is definitely wrong. It's raw power and pace where men have the obvious biological edge.

I've heard of some study where their pain tolerance makes them better long distance athletes or something but a culture war erupted so i cbf going into it.
 

thierry henry

International Coach
Simona de Silvestro and Danica Patrick have race wins in Indy Car, which is physically tough and demanding on the reflexes. I think the reflexes guy earlier in the thread is definitely wrong. It's raw power and pace where men have the obvious biological edge.

I've heard of some study where their pain tolerance makes them better long distance athletes or something but a culture war erupted so i cbf going into it.
Nah just give it a google, it's pretty well established that men have faster reflexes
 

GotSpin

Hall of Fame Member
Grade level. Second or thirds Maybe ones in a weaker club.
There'd be guys playing park cricket who would bowl faster I reckon.

That Martin Shield comp I chatted to you about had some guys with genuine pace for example
 

RossTaylorsBox

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Are there any top level physically demanding sports where women can compete at the same level as men?
Shooting and archery maybe?

I kind of want to see what would happen in gymnastics if women did the rings/pommel horse and men the balance beam/uneven bars.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
The only cricketing skill which I think elite women may have a chance to compete at the top level in is wicketkeeping. Sceptical though.
 

Howe_zat

Audio File
In professional sport the amount of money that is poured into getting the absolute maximum out of male athletes is huge and with a couple of exceptions generally isn't there for the womens' equivalent. So while there are biological differences, what differences are there are going to be exaggerated by the fact that male and female sportspeople aren't treated the same and don't have the same professional lives.

Even if you are testing members of the public you are more likely to find men that regularly engage in sports and similar activities for complicated social reasons, and so are more likely to both take part in and be predisposed towards being successful in the thing the study is measuring. The differences are not only biological but also social and economic.

What female athletes are capable of doing and what they could be capable of doing compared to male athletes are two different questions as a result.

But this is all academic really. It doesn't matter if Elyse Perry would be in the top 500 male cricketers or not. Being probably the best female cricketer in the world does matter.
 

thierry henry

International Coach
I deleted my earlier posts on this because I sounded like a wanker (more than usual). Suffice to say though, I know from close experience that international women's spinners compete at about a 3rd grade club level in NZ, and mediocre first class cricketers are worse than me. Those same mediocre first class players also play indoor cricket at an international level and in social grade men's indoor cricket are closer to the worst players in the team than the best.
 

Kraken

International 12th Man
One of the kids I coached in rep cricket and greenies was genuinely quick at 14/15 (considerably quicker than the rest of the age group and around the same as the elite women now).
He’d be 17/18 now, unfortunately had some terrible injuries
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
The only cricketing skill which I think elite women may have a chance to compete at the top level in is wicketkeeping. Sceptical though.
To clarify, I don't mean this as disrespectful to women cricketers and I think Perry is an ATG of the game.

Replying purely to the thread question, I just think the biological differences in being able to bowl and deal with pace are way too much, even if you equalize systemic factors.
 

Flem274*

123/5
To clarify, I don't mean this as disrespectful to women cricketers and I think Perry is an ATG of the game.

Replying purely to the thread question, I just think the biological differences in being able to bowl and deal with pace are way too much, even if you equalize systemic factors.
Yeah this is basically the crux of it. It will be interesting to see what the current true professionalization achieves with womens pace bowling in 10-20 years. It's consistent production that matters, rather than the one offs. I think average pace will increase by 10-20kph or so (would be about 100kph now right?) but not top end. I doubt a woman will touch 140kph based on current evidence, but I hope it happens.

We'll see less allrounder buffets as well I think. There's so many of them atm in every team, probably because the gap between the most talented and the least is quite wide currently.
 

Flem274*

123/5
I think you underestimate the difficulty on hitting that sort of bowling on uncovered pitches and with the bats of the time. Many of those medium pacers would have been bowling around the same speed as the faster women's bowlers today.
you're probably one of the few on here who has also actually watched the bowlers i mention. Cave and Cresswell would get destroyed today by womens cricketers imo. They're not bowling 120kph, they're genuinely getting flight on their mediums.
 

cnerd123

likes this
There is a level of men's cricket where an elite women's team could be successful just by doing the basics right (taking catches, batting sensibly, bowling straight, knowing how to set their fields, etc), even if they are at a disadvantage strength/pace/power wise.

But once you get to a level where the men are doing the basics correct more often than not, they should win games more often than not too. This is not a very high level usually. I've seen a team of amateur Chinese cricketers beat the HK women's team. You can see this too on YouTube:


Having said that - Howe's point is very salient. Women's sport is so far behind Men's sport in terms of participation and development that the gap between them is not just about biology. It will be interesting to see how much further women's cricket will improve in the next few decades - it's already come so far in the last one.
 

Jack1

International Debutant
The only cricketing skill which I think elite women may have a chance to compete at the top level in is wicketkeeping. Sceptical though.
Bradman is such a big outlier that it may be possible for a woman to be elite at test level against men in any facet.
 
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Tom Flint

International Regular
Her point was that the skill levels were at the same level (ie greatness is measured in relation to your peers). I admitted the point but my argument was that everything happened at a greater pace hence the competition was advanced in the mens game but she simply couldn't get the point

Are there any top level physically demanding sports where women can compete at the same level as men?
Boxing
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Bradman is such a big outlier that it may be possible for a woman to be elite at test level against men in any facet.
That's a really interesting point. But I think statistics works against you there because you're already looking at the outliers on the bell curve anyway. Finding someone with Bradman level ability doesn't happen regularly at all.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Having said that - Howe's point is very salient. Women's sport is so far behind Men's sport in terms of participation and development that the gap between them is not just about biology. It will be interesting to see how much further women's cricket will improve in the next few decades - it's already come so far in the last one.
The problem is that even in sports with more even participation and a much longer history of female participation at the high level, like tennis, there is still a very substantial gap when you get to the elite level. As with men we aren't seeing the fastest bowlers get faster, it's more that the general level is improving. From my own experience observing local matches Women's cricket at the grassroots level is currently a lot like lower grade junior cricket, where you often have a couple of standout players who do by far the bulk of the work. I expect that will change in the next 10-15 years, but I wouldn't be so sure the ceiling will rise all that much.
 

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