Pakistan's bowling and India's batting?

[subshakerz]

amar singh, karsan ghavri, kapil dev, roger binny, madan lal, zaheer khan and irffan pathan - all meat eating indian pace bowlers. and none as good as imran, akram, waqar, fazal and shoaib. in fact, srinath - a vegetarian fast bowler was better than all of them except kapil. i dont get this "pakistani pacers are better coz they are meat eaters whereas indian pacers are veggies hence they are inferior" logic. it is totally fabricated.

I agree, I don't think the vegetarian excuse can be used given that there are more muslims in India than in Pakistan. However, I may be wrong, but I do recall Srinath saying in a cricket show a long time back that he does actually eat meat.

 

[silentstriker]

Do I think genetics has a role? Yea, probably. But not as nearly as much as people may think, and in a country of billion people, even if genetically an extra standard deviation is needed, there is more than enough people to do it.

In the end, we need cricket being accessible to enough people. Especially playing in a real cricket pitch. Most people in the UK or Australia can play cricket if they really want to, even if its a bit difficult. Good luck being born as 70% Indians and being able to play on a real cricket pitch with a real cricket ball with real cricket equipment.

 

[Dissector]

Since we are talking about India-Pakistan clearly better facilities aren't the issue. I would say it's a combination of genetics, climate and diet. Pakistan seems to produce more tall,well-built cricketers than India. I think their climate is cooler at least in winter than a lot of India. And meat-eating probably helps as well. Possibly part of the issue is that Indian bowlers are over-coached into mediocrity while Pakistani bowlers get more freedom to develop their own style like Sri Lankan bowlers.

 

[Shri]

Do I think genetics has a role? Yea, probably. But not as nearly as much as people may think, and in a country of billion people, even if genetically an extra standard deviation is needed, there is more than enough people to do it.

In the end, we need cricket being accessible to enough people. Especially playing in a real cricket pitch. Most people in the UK or Australia can play cricket if they really want to, even if its a bit difficult. Good luck being born as 70% Indians and being able to play on a real cricket pitch with a real cricket ball with real cricket equipment.

Real cricket equipments are over rated. I started playing the game when I was 10 years old with a flat bat made by a carpenter. We just took a brick and drew stumps on the wall and used a medium sized stone for the bowler's stump. We usually played the game bare footed. I used gloves, pads and helmets when I played for my school team and hated them tbh. And most of my friends feel the same way too. It all comes down to how much you want to play the game imo.

 

[SaeedAnwar]

Since we are talking about India-Pakistan clearly better facilities aren't the issue. I would say it's a combination of genetics, climate and diet. Pakistan seems to produce more tall,well-built cricketers than India. I think their climate is cooler at least in winter than a lot of India. And meat-eating probably helps as well. Possibly part of the issue is that Indian bowlers are over-coached into mediocrity while Pakistani bowlers get more freedom to develop their own style like Sri Lankan bowlers.

yup, half of pakistan gets snow in the winter, In India only some northern areas north of punjab do.

 

[subshakerz]

Since we are talking about India-Pakistan clearly better facilities aren't the issue. I would say it's a combination of genetics, climate and diet. Pakistan seems to produce more tall,well-built cricketers than India. I think their climate is cooler at least in winter than a lot of India. And meat-eating probably helps as well. Possibly part of the issue is that Indian bowlers are over-coached into mediocrity while Pakistani bowlers get more freedom to develop their own style like Sri Lankan bowlers.

Shoaib is from Rawalpindi, Imran and Wasim are from Lahore, and Waqar is from Burewala. None of those are particularly cool areas. In fact, Pakistan hasnt had as many cricketers from the Northern areas as it should, cricket doesn't seem to be as popular there as it is in Punjab and the south.

I believe the single most important difference is cricket playing culture. Climate and diet are not as different as one thinks.

 

[subshakerz]

the main reason for the strong bowling pakistanis have is they keep their players for long time and in indian team when ever i see i see new players..

Whenever I see an exciting new pacer from India I give him a shell life of two-three years before he's reduced to a merely decent/good bowler. I don't think young bowlers in India are encouraged to let loose once in a while the way Imran encouraged Wasim and Waqar. The Indian media hype machine also did a lot of damage to bowlers like Irfan Pathan and Ishant IMO.

 

[SaeedAnwar]

^ these areas are hot in summers but could get really cold in winters, it snow in Islamabad and surrounding areas, also western punjab has been heavily influenced by the Pathan areas of Pakistan, There are many mixed marriages in that area aswell, you can clearly see a the Difference between the people of Islamabad and Lahore, eventhough they are both Punjab technically

 

[Migara]

well but actually meat eating or not eating, is considered as talking against someone's religion, i think we should make it clear that can we talk about it or we can't
i mean now if someone from india 'll say that then i think it will be reasonable but if i start saying it, they'll feel like i'm speaking against someone religion
same applies to me too
so for me it's a sensitive matter

There's nothing called racial discrimination here. The diet in SL strongly dictated by religion and the region of the country. If you consider Buddhists who are reserved in consuming meat, there are huge differences between regions. Southerners eat a lot of fish, because it's readily available, which is nothing to do with religion. I think you have misunderstood m point.

 

[mohammad16]

Actually its simply genetics. Role models, development and other things play a role, but its defintely mostly genetics.

People always forget this golden rule, Genuine fast pace bowlers are BORN not made.

Its just like sprinters, they are born not made. Sure you can help beef up the pace with training and inspiration, but not beyond a certain point, its minimal really.

Batsmen on the other hand are more or less made. Yes you cannot do half the things brian lara does at the crease without having enourmous amounts of talent, but with hard work, batting can be improved at a much more significant rate than bowling pace.

So pace aside, the reson for which is the genetic make up of most pacemen from Pakistan. Indians have suffered from producing quality swing and seam bowlers due to most of the reasons you guys mentioned.

90% of swing is totally dependant on your bowling action contrary to what most believe. The other 10% is dependent on what you do with your wrist and other skill factors.

I suppose Pakistanis have just been more willing to experiment and develop such skill, this coupled with their pace has made their fast bowlers very lethal.

Indians have produced better batsmen but not more TALENTED ones.

If you look at Inzamam, Yousuf, Saeed anwar and you look at their techniques

they are severely flawed compared to most if not all Indian batsmen with the exception of sehwag.

Inzamam is in a different class all together, he is probably more genuinely god gifted than Tendulkar and Lara, but because he never worked on his game, he will never and rightly not be considered in the same class as Lara and Tendulkar.

I remember when Lara faced Mohammad Zahid who he called the quickeest bowler he has ever faced. Lara could not touch Zahid for the whole over and finally got out to him.

Mohammad Zahid himself in an interview said that one batsmen who he never even remotely troubled in practice no matter how hard he tried was Inzamam. He said Inzamam was never impressed, he would just play me with ease. And this guy was a lot quicker than Akhat at his prime.

Saeed Anwar was a tremendous natural stroke player who always played the same way, but his technique also lacked.

Indian batsmen are just very well groomed, they are well taught and are very hard workers. They are mentally tougher than most Pakistani batsmen in general, and this is why they have consistently produced better batsmen. But I dont think they have produced more naturally talented ones.

 

[subshakerz]

If genetics or diet or climate or whatever were the overwhelming factor, you would have seen at least one high pace fast bowler for the first two decades of Pakistan's existence. Then comes Imran in the mid-70s who was bred in Pakistan to be a medium pacer but physically and mentally willed himself to be a genuine paceman, and all of a sudden you have a fast bowling legacy that extends to this day. I dont think that's a coincidence.

 

[Migara]

Mohammad Zahid himself in an interview said that one batsmen who he never even remotely troubled in practice no matter how hard he tried was Inzamam. He said Inzamam was never impressed, he would just play me with ease. And this guy was a lot quicker than Akhat at his prime.

Brett Lee was bowling at Inzi in a tourgame (Lee was close for AUS call then). He was bowling 95+mph at Inzy. After hitting 75+ Lee has had to say something about Inzi. Inzi retorted "Can't you ball little faster? I thought you were bowling off spin" Such was his ability to handle extreme pace. But Inzi was piss-poor when it came to handling balls pitched up to him.

 

[AaronK]

in regards to diet that some people are discussing here.. i honestly think maybe it could help in terms of giving bowler the power and energy to bowle fast and quick deliveries..but how would that help when it comes to swinging the ball.. i mean we have seen young kids age 17 to 22 coming up from pakistan and swinging the ball like crazy.. i remember afew years ago i watched a video of a kid named Anwar ali playing in the finals of under 19 against india..those in swingers were unplayable..he end up taking 5 wickets and defended a target of 110 rungs..we all know how good Mohmmad asif coud be with those lethal in swingers... Gul with his reverse swing.. I have never seen anyone from india at any level.. that could swing the bowle that much..so Diet maybe it could help with bowling fast but it takes talent and natural abilities to produce swinging deliveries...

 

[brackenNY]

yup, half of pakistan gets snow in the winter, In India only some northern areas north of punjab do.

Um, no.

Even as far north as Islamabad, it's extremely rare for it to snow. I remember it snowed back maybe 4-5 years ago and everyone was impressed.

Now I'm in Michigan where there's tons of snow.

 

[SaeedAnwar]

^ yes but it does, also all of western pakistan, baluchistan, NWFP gets snow because of higher plains, roughly 30-40% of the country gets snow

 

[subshakerz]

^ yes but it does, also all of western pakistan, baluchistan, NWFP gets snow because of higher plains, roughly 30-40% of the country gets snow

Yet no fast bowler has emerged from those areas.

 

[jeevan]

I agree, I don't think the vegetarian excuse can be used given that there are more muslims in India than in Pakistan. However, I may be wrong, but I do recall Srinath saying in a cricket show a long time back that he does actually eat meat.

Seems he's defying the stereotype..

 

[HMas]

2 reasons :

Pakistan are aggressive people.

Indians are genetically weak & passive people.

 

[Fusion]

2 reasons :

Pakistan are aggressive people.

Indians are genetically weak & passive people.

Garbage.

 

[Faisal1985]

Stats and numbers can tell different stories.....but i personally think it has a lot to do with "trend"....or popular culture....we had Imran coming in adds and so on. Kids were attracted to him and wanted to become like him. He had set a trend of pace bowling.....and had identified pacers in wasim and waqar, don't forget we have had many pacers who never made it to the national level or did for a very brief period of time because through out the 90's 2Ws and perhaps Akhtar had reserved positions in the team....Mohammad Zahid for example was just as fast as Akhtar...he got out because of an injury but even before that he hardly was getting any chance because of all these fast bowlers already in Pak team.

The trend set by Imran was nurtured by the inclusions of the 2Ws and then Akhtar....and to further develop the trend and Pak cricket culture .....the right ingredients were available in local boys. Tapeball cricket.....even today, walk around Montreal, Canada where i live, walk around Toronto streets in summer, walk around NYC in summer and you will see kids playing tapeball cricket....big tournaments are held in cities like Huston even for simply tapeball cricket.....then imagine the size of this street cricket in the streets of Lahore, Pindi, Karachi etc. its huge!

Now about reverse swing......tapeball cricket imo has helped us learn that late reverse of the ball.....when the tape is slightly torn off from one side of the tapeball.....direct your ball on off stump give it good pace and good flight and hit the yorker length on off stump the ball will swing late into the righty and will take leg stump............this is where imo Sarfraz, Imran etc. thought of perhaps taking care of the hardball in such a way that it would start reversing late.....ofcourse its much harder with hardball but in tapeball if you have that little piece of tape coming off thats it..batsmen are in trouble....and that is pure thrill........i still play tapeball and there is no excitment as such as of a tapeball game.....

Anyways, in short ....its the trend plus the type of street cricket Pakistanis play that led them to produce a lot more quality fast bowlers than India......

I am not going to comment why India produced such great batsmen, because i wouldn't know why......