*Official* Yorkshire CCC racism crisis thread

[Manee]

Also said eating meat and nothing else cured his and his daughters depression, before promptly being admitted to a rehab center

My dad started eating a 90% meat diet and got extremely sick. Not sharing this for any other reason than to say "don't do it!"

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

I go back and forth whether he is deliberately obtuse. I don't think he is - I just think he has spent a long time in academia and writing academic papers where you have to really agonise over phrasing so that you make your point so clearly that it is actually very unclear to everyone other than Susie Dent.

Lol this isn't what academics do.

 

[Manee]

Lol this isn't what academics do.

Maybe just the psychology papers I read during my MSc.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Psychology is such bull**** I wouldn't put anything past them

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Maybe just the psychology papers I read during my MSc.

.
OK, it isnt what good academics do. His wording is a deliberate way to obfuscate everything and make him seem smart while not really saying anything. He is somewhat good at this.

 

[Manee]

.
OK, it isnt what good academics do. His wording is a deliberate way to obfuscate everything and make him seem smart while not really saying anything. He is somewhat good at this.

We're both flying without evidence in whether it is deliberate or not deliberate though. I happen to think it is not deliberate and he is passionate about getting his words precisely correct. To tell you the truth, I had no issue understanding what he was trying to say on the QT clip and I'm hardly the brain of Britain. I think a lot of people who don't understand him are doing so because they are clouded by preconceptions about him as some sort of alt-right gateway or general far-right figure. But then I'm heavily speculating here, myself.

And to tell the truth, there is lots about him in recent years which has clouded my own good faith that I had in him as coming from a position of reason and logic. So who knows. I do still like lots about him, really respect his mission to help people and really liked his take on QT but there is plenty of suspect things about him these days.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

But even your explanation of what he meant doesn't make sense. How do discussions of structural racism obscure individual behaviour or punishments when people have in fact been punished? Which bad actors are slipping through the net? Who is supposed to be punished but isn't? If he can answer these questions properly then maybe we can address his point, but he can't and won't.

 

[Manee]

But even your explanation of what he meant doesn't make sense. How do discussions of structural racism obscure individual behaviour or punishments when people have in fact been punished? Which bad actors are slipping through the net? Who is supposed to be punished but isn't? If he can answer these questions properly then maybe we can address his point, but he can't and won't.

It obscures because it is ill-defined. It obscures because it lumps things like Robinson in with things like Ballance and Vaughan. It obscures because it pits white people against "others" in the intellectual discussion. It obscures because it confuses inequitable opportunities and microaggressions (serious institutional issues) with bullying (serious individual issues).

If you approach him in bad faith, that he's a nonsense merchant then everything he says (and by extension, what I say) can be construed as nonsense. I don't discount that this might be the right way to go about things and a more accurate representation of reality. I'm just considering that there is a way to approach things that he has some merit in what he's saying.

 

[Xix2565]

Also I really agree with what JBP said about "racism". Until I meet someone who can actually define the term (i.e., never), I think it is best used in speechmarks. To suggest he put it in speechmarks as a dog whistle was moronic and bad faith by the panel. It is something I passionately believe that discussions of "racism" are often unhelpful. No one knows what racism is, all that pretty much everyone "knows" is that they aren't it. I've seen documentaries where Neo-Nazis deny being racist - that is how ill-defined the term is.

Racism is discrimination by race/skin colour. Anything else, like this post, is sheer lunacy. If you didn't know this before by now...

 

[harsh.ag]

Racism is discrimination by race/skin colour. Anything else, like this post, is sheer lunacy. If you didn't know this before by now...

That would make the woke crowd racist against white people. The element of power dynamics is a huge part of racism now, whether or not one likes that part of the definition

 

[honestbharani]

The thing is, it is possible for systems and institutions to not have done enough to stop discrimination, which means structurally they need to change. Of course, this allows some bad eggs to come in and be bad eggs. But it is also actually possible that at some point, once it basically becomes the norm, others also get sucked into it thinking this is how it is, when it should not be.

So, yes, while the people who have been named, having had a brush in international cricket, were all expected to know and do better than what they did and they should get their just desserts for it. But it also means Yorkshire and maybe even the ECB has to create better processes around their organization to ensure this type of behaviour does not become the norm ever again.

 

[Xix2565]

That would make the woke crowd racist against white people. The element of power dynamics is a huge part of racism now, whether or not one likes that part of the definition

Bold and vague statement to be making, as if being woke is related to being racist or that majorities in any one region can't be racially abused in the world.

EDIT: Power dynamics (and abuse of them) existing doesn't mean Manee's post or yours were right about racism.

 

[Manee]

Racism is discrimination by race/skin colour. Anything else, like this post, is sheer lunacy. If you didn't know this before by now...

It is more complicated than that, though, isn't it? For example, many think not robust biological basis for race. To label discrimination based on something with limited objective reality becomes, at the very least, complicated because of the reliance on subjectivity about whether judgements were due to racial categorisations. If have an entirely social construction of race then looking down on certain cultural practices as antiquated could be interpreted as racism - that doesn't feel right.

To say he was bullied because he had a different skin colour to the norm unmasks what really went on here.

I had a lecturer who said we need to stop using racism as a pejorative term and more as a descriptive term. I think this view has lots of merit. I think in reality, people use it as a pejorative without thinking about the substance. Because the substance of "racism" is complicated. I don't agree with JBP that it is too complicated to be useful, I just think it is more complicated than people think.

EDIT: My tone here is borderline confrontational - not intended.

 

[Manee]

That would make the woke crowd racist against white people. The element of power dynamics is a huge part of racism now, whether or not one likes that part of the definition

Agree with this.

 

[Xix2565]

It is more complicated than that, though, isn't it? For example, many think not robust biological basis for race. To label discrimination based on something with limited objective reality becomes, at the very least, complicated because of the reliance on subjectivity about whether judgements were due to racial categorisations. If have an entirely social construction of race then looking down on certain cultural practices as antiquated could be interpreted as racism - that doesn't feel right.

To say he was bullied because he had a different skin colour to the norm unmasks what really went on here.

I had a lecturer who said we need to stop using racism as a pejorative term and more as a descriptive term. I think this view has lots of merit. I think in reality, people use it as a pejorative without thinking about the substance. Because the substance of "racism" is complicated. I don't agree with JBP that it is too complicated to be useful, I just think it is more complicated than people think.

What is the point of this? People being idiotic about how to be racist? And I don't get the point on cultural practices, feels like you just wanted to write a bit for no reason. Brevity exists you know.

It's as complicated as you want it to be. Don't think JP's imagination or similar ideas matter much here in reality unless you like meaningless arguments.

 

[Manee]

Fair enough - let's just leave it here.

 

[SteveNZ]

The number of borderline pedo apologists on here in the past 24-48 hours has surprised me tbh.

I'm not part of this, incidentally...I abhor it as much as you, especially since I became a father to girls. I wasn't trying to absolve his behaviour; more so a lame joke that there's a lot of international cricketers ahead of him in the sleaze queue

 

[harsh.ag]

Bold and vague statement to be making, as if being woke is related to being racist or that majorities in any one region can't be racially abused in the world.

Your latter statement is correct. When we talk about these things on CW, usually the context is taken as USA and Western Europe, for better or for worse. Hope that makes my statement make sense.

 

[SteveNZ]

That's just the media being the media, anything that will incite anger and get clicks is on the table. Don't think it's as one-sided as you're implying or that there is an anti-minority/pro-racism agenda anywhere other than rare niche right-wing programming.

This is an age where anyone with any sort of public profile is getting hunted for dirt. Why would he be any different?

It is the media, you're right. Social media does it just as well, if not better - the old pillory approach. Set up the transgressors in the stocks, and hurl rotten tomatoes at them for public gratification.

 

[Son Of Coco]

It's much simpler. He's a ****ty grifter who lies all the time. Once claimed he didn't sleep for 20+ days consecutively on a podcast.

So the 'B' in JBP stands for Bull****?