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*Official* India tour of England 2025 General Discussion
- Thread starter Thala_0710
- Start date
Bro he was batting in the evening vs a decent seamer. **** happens, nothing to do with mindset.
Chin Music
State Captain
IND vs ENG 4th Test: Why have pitches in England been flat? | Cricket News - Times of India This article is about a week old and is from the Times Of India, of all papers, discussing why the decks have been so flat this series.
So I tried to check how this series actually stacks up against other 3+ match series in averages per wicket as a measure of ‘pitch flatness’…but couldn’t get Statsguru to query with the right conditions.
Looking at all the 3+ match series that have taken place in England alone then, this series has the third highest average per wicket. The other two surprisingly also happen to feature India, on their tours in 1990 and 2002. These games also featured immense batting performances from Gooch, Dravid and Vaughn.
Per recent times though, this series is an outlier, with the closest average to the current series being the Sri Lanka tour in 2011.
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...e;template=results;type=aggregate;view=series
Looking at all the 3+ match series that have taken place in England alone then, this series has the third highest average per wicket. The other two surprisingly also happen to feature India, on their tours in 1990 and 2002. These games also featured immense batting performances from Gooch, Dravid and Vaughn.
Per recent times though, this series is an outlier, with the closest average to the current series being the Sri Lanka tour in 2011.
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...e;template=results;type=aggregate;view=series
Molehill
International Coach
The one I was thinking of as closest recently was the NZ Tour in 2022. The first 2 Tests both saw flat pitches that never really deteriorated. They were also noticeable for a set of Dukes balls that went utterly dead after 30 overs and thus middle orders scored bucket loads of runs. Think it would've challenged this if not for the first 2 innings at Lord's.
CricAddict
International Coach
All matches have gone till the last session and all matches have had a lot of drama. Pant and Stokes playing good knocks carrying an injury, match winning/saving knocks by Jamie Smith, Jadeja and Sundar, good bowling by Archer and Co to win the previous test. Root getting up to number two on all runs and Gill on the verge of breaking series records. Closely fought with series on the line going to the last test. Been good watching so far. This series is up there with the best in terms of cricket as well as drama.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Its amazing that for all of the good and bad cricket the teams have played while batting and bowling, its the fielding and esp. the catching that may decide the series. India lost two tests due to dropped catches, England lost one and drew the other which they could have well won due to their own dropped catches.
Shady Slim
International Coach
not dissimilar to india's last series here either really
Arachnödouche2.0
State Vice-Captain
Catches, runouts, injudicious hoicks when sitting pretty on hundreds, concussing your foot while trying to reverse-scoop yorkers, Prasidh Krishna, Gautam Gambhir, etc. List as long as Ben Stokes' rap sheet really.
silentstriker
The Wheel is Forever
What was the pitch rating for this pitch? Surely it had to have been rated as less than satisfactory?
The_CricketUmpire
State Regular
Attachments
ankitj
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
This series has 2nd highest aggregate runs ever. It will fall just short of one 6-test series
LangleyburyCCPlayer
International Debutant
Series ratings:
England
Crawley (3 50s, 290 runs at 32.22) 5/10, what can you say, the Crawley culture wars continue, he’ll have done enough to keep his place in the team, but nowhere near enough to silence the doubters
Duckett (1 100, 3 50s, 462 runs at 51.33) 8/10, you know what you’re going to get with Duckett, he’ll charge at everything, which will lead to some thrilling knocks but also some soft dismissals. Still one of the best openers in world cricket
Pope (1 100, 1 50, 306 runs at 34) 5/10, not unlike Crawley, but whereas Crawley can at least say he is (the lesser) half of England’s most successful opening partnership since Cook and Strauss, Pope doesn’t even have that going for him. He’ll go to the Ashes, I think he’ll get all 5 games but will struggle and then I think the serious discussion over his place in the team will start
Root (3 100s, 1 50, 537 runs at 67.12) 9/10, what can you say about him that hasn’t already been said? He’ll be devastated about the method of his dismissal yesterday evening, but he helped win us our two games, and put us in a winning position at Old Trafford and the Oval
Brook (2 100s, 2 50s, 481 runs at 53.44) 7/10, took advantage of chances at Headingley and the Oval to hit some big scores, but he’s only got one gear
Stokes (1 100, 0 50s, 304 runs at 43.42, 17 wickets at 25.23) 9/10, bowling was hugely encouraging, the only one to get anything going at Old Trafford you understand why he bowled himself into the ground, hopefully he’s fit and firing for the Ashes. Came back into form with the bat at Old Trafford
Smith (18 catches, 1 stumping, 1 100, 2 50s, 434 runs at 62) 8/10, tailed off with the bat, a terrible dismissal just now, but perhaps his overall drop off with the bat is understandable considering he’s been very busy behind the stumps, especially at the Oval when he had some absolute dross being bowled at him
Woakes (11 wickets at 52.18, 64 runs at 10.66) 4/10, clearly not what he was, but I don’t think he bowled that badly until his injury, I think we’ll miss his bowling Down Under. It’s not his primary skill, but his batting has completely collapsed, I don’t know why he continues to come out at number 8 when Carse and Atkinson are clearly better batters
Carse (9 wickets at 60.88, 1 50, 164 runs at 27.33) 4/10, thought he bowled well at Lord’s, but did struggle overall, especially at Old Trafford. His batting is a bonus, but you wonder if he’s been usurped by Tongue
Tongue (19 wickets at 29.05), 7/10, ends up as England’s leading wicket taker, can be wayward, but bowls wicket taking deliveries, I think he’s nudged ahead of Carse in the pecking order now
Bashir (10 wickets at 54.1), 5/10, gets flak for obvious reasons, but I thought he did OK on pitches that weren’t suited to him at all. Whether his height will make him effective in Australia is…up for debate, but like Crawley and Pope, he’s surely going to play
Archer (9 wickets at 28.66), 8/10, lovely to have him back, fitness permitting, he walks into this team, just have to be careful with him!
Atkinson (8 wickets at 20, 28 runs at 11) 8/10, possibly England’s best bowler when fit, thought he came through OK despite having to bowl nearly 50 overs off the back of hardly any cricket, but hopefully won’t have to do much of that again!
Overton (2 wickets at 82, 9 runs at 4.5), 2/10, got a bit better in the second innings, unlucky that England shelled a few catches, but a poor show in the first innings in friendly conditions. Perhaps a bit unlucky to be given out so late in the second innings, but did get a duck in the first innings
Dawson (1 wicket at 140, 26 runs at 26) 5/10, economical (OK, he wasn’t threatening and India were happy to block him in the second innings at Old Trafford) and did contribute a bit with the bat, which you’d think would carry some weight with most teams (especially with an Ashes series to come), but surely won’t with this management
Bethell (11 runs at 5.5, 0/17), 1/10, the gamble didn’t pay off, he looked like a white ball player who didn’t know how to deal with not being able to score, but is that surprising when he’s played so little red ball cricket?
England
Crawley (3 50s, 290 runs at 32.22) 5/10, what can you say, the Crawley culture wars continue, he’ll have done enough to keep his place in the team, but nowhere near enough to silence the doubters
Duckett (1 100, 3 50s, 462 runs at 51.33) 8/10, you know what you’re going to get with Duckett, he’ll charge at everything, which will lead to some thrilling knocks but also some soft dismissals. Still one of the best openers in world cricket
Pope (1 100, 1 50, 306 runs at 34) 5/10, not unlike Crawley, but whereas Crawley can at least say he is (the lesser) half of England’s most successful opening partnership since Cook and Strauss, Pope doesn’t even have that going for him. He’ll go to the Ashes, I think he’ll get all 5 games but will struggle and then I think the serious discussion over his place in the team will start
Root (3 100s, 1 50, 537 runs at 67.12) 9/10, what can you say about him that hasn’t already been said? He’ll be devastated about the method of his dismissal yesterday evening, but he helped win us our two games, and put us in a winning position at Old Trafford and the Oval
Brook (2 100s, 2 50s, 481 runs at 53.44) 7/10, took advantage of chances at Headingley and the Oval to hit some big scores, but he’s only got one gear
Stokes (1 100, 0 50s, 304 runs at 43.42, 17 wickets at 25.23) 9/10, bowling was hugely encouraging, the only one to get anything going at Old Trafford you understand why he bowled himself into the ground, hopefully he’s fit and firing for the Ashes. Came back into form with the bat at Old Trafford
Smith (18 catches, 1 stumping, 1 100, 2 50s, 434 runs at 62) 8/10, tailed off with the bat, a terrible dismissal just now, but perhaps his overall drop off with the bat is understandable considering he’s been very busy behind the stumps, especially at the Oval when he had some absolute dross being bowled at him
Woakes (11 wickets at 52.18, 64 runs at 10.66) 4/10, clearly not what he was, but I don’t think he bowled that badly until his injury, I think we’ll miss his bowling Down Under. It’s not his primary skill, but his batting has completely collapsed, I don’t know why he continues to come out at number 8 when Carse and Atkinson are clearly better batters
Carse (9 wickets at 60.88, 1 50, 164 runs at 27.33) 4/10, thought he bowled well at Lord’s, but did struggle overall, especially at Old Trafford. His batting is a bonus, but you wonder if he’s been usurped by Tongue
Tongue (19 wickets at 29.05), 7/10, ends up as England’s leading wicket taker, can be wayward, but bowls wicket taking deliveries, I think he’s nudged ahead of Carse in the pecking order now
Bashir (10 wickets at 54.1), 5/10, gets flak for obvious reasons, but I thought he did OK on pitches that weren’t suited to him at all. Whether his height will make him effective in Australia is…up for debate, but like Crawley and Pope, he’s surely going to play
Archer (9 wickets at 28.66), 8/10, lovely to have him back, fitness permitting, he walks into this team, just have to be careful with him!
Atkinson (8 wickets at 20, 28 runs at 11) 8/10, possibly England’s best bowler when fit, thought he came through OK despite having to bowl nearly 50 overs off the back of hardly any cricket, but hopefully won’t have to do much of that again!
Overton (2 wickets at 82, 9 runs at 4.5), 2/10, got a bit better in the second innings, unlucky that England shelled a few catches, but a poor show in the first innings in friendly conditions. Perhaps a bit unlucky to be given out so late in the second innings, but did get a duck in the first innings
Dawson (1 wicket at 140, 26 runs at 26) 5/10, economical (OK, he wasn’t threatening and India were happy to block him in the second innings at Old Trafford) and did contribute a bit with the bat, which you’d think would carry some weight with most teams (especially with an Ashes series to come), but surely won’t with this management
Bethell (11 runs at 5.5, 0/17), 1/10, the gamble didn’t pay off, he looked like a white ball player who didn’t know how to deal with not being able to score, but is that surprising when he’s played so little red ball cricket?
A hundred years ago (1924-25) Australia played England in a five-Test series. The Sydney Sunday News reported that 45 catches were dropped, 24 by Australia and 21 by England. Monty Noble commented: It is hardly creditable that two international sides should average five "misses" an innings, or nine every match. In other words the figure was considered very high for the time. It didn't include missed stumpings and run-outs, of which there were a few.
During the series that has just finished, 42 catches were missed. 22 by India and 20 by England. Various stumping and run-out chances again excluded.
Maybe catching standards have not improved as much as we think.
I don't think we learned anything in this series. Duckett, Root and Brook are excellent batters, Crawley and Pope are mediocre. Woakes is in decline. Bashir isn't a great spinner but he did better than Dawson. Bethell and Joverton play little cricket or in poor form and play poorly. Decent bowlers are injury prone.
Red_Ink_Squid
Global Moderator
This is about right. Biggest surprise positive was Stokes' bowling, though obviously tempered by another injury there. That and Archer being fit enough to play Tests again. Biggest underperformer relative to expectation was probably Carse given how well he bowled in the winter, but not sure if he was ever 100% fit here.
Not sure about Bashir > Dawson, and at least the latter can bat a bit.
LangleyburyCCPlayer
International Debutant
India:
Jaiswal (411 runs at 41.1, 2 100s, 2 50s) 7/10, started off very well, tailed off (his ton at the Oval was undeniably chancy)
Rahul (532 runs at 53.2, 2 100s, 2 50s) 8/10, contributed in all Tests apart from the last one
Sudharsan (140 runs at 23.33, 1 50), 4/10, decent 50 at OT, got in in tough batting conditions at the Oval, a baptism of fire, but I think he’s worth persisting with
Gill (754 runs at 75.4, 4 100s), 9/10, Lord’s and a stupid run-out the only real blots on an otherwise stunning series
Pant (479 runs at 68.42, 7 catches), 9/10, a warrior, contributed in every match with the bat and a solid series with the gloves too
Nair (205 runs at 25.62, 1 50), 5/10, often did the hard bit by getting in, which is always the hard bit, then found a way to get out. Technically he did outperform Sai Sudharsan, but you wonder how much more rope he’ll get
Jadeja (516 runs at 86, 1 100, 5 50s, 7 wickets at 72.42), 8/10, great series with the bat (if you’re being hyper critical maybe he could have got a jog on at Lord’s during the chase), understandably not much of a factor with the ball
Sundar (284 runs at 47.33, 1 100, 1 50, 7 wickets at 38.57), 8/10, brilliant series, must be a fixture in the team going forward. Could get into the team solely on his batting, but even so, his bowling in unfriendly conditions was the best of any spinner
Akash Deep (13 wickets at 36.46, 80 runs at 20, 1 50), 7/10 decent with the ball, and a crucial 50 with the bat. Is it too much to ask of him to bat at 8? Out of all of India’s seamers he's definitely the best with the bat
Bumrah (14 wickets at 26), 8/10, not at his sparkling best, kept his average just below 20, but still fine figures by anyone’s reckoning in these conditions. Fatigue or not fatigue, he’d have been gutted to miss out on the green Oval pitch!
Siraj (23 wickets at 32.43) 8/10, superhuman effort, you’d never have known this was his 5th Test on the bounce! His heart and his stamina will be the main talking point, but he doesn’t lack for skill neither
Krishna (14 wickets at 37.07) 7/10, shaky start, but made up for it at the Oval
Jurel (53 runs at 26.5, 8 catches, 2 stumpings) 7/10, one Test with the bat in which he did OK, kept well up at the stumps to Deep, thought he was unlucky to have a lot of balls swing past him at Lord’s
Reddy (3 wickets at 37, 45 runs at 11.25), 4/10, a bit ‘bits and pieces’ isn’t he? I know India really want a seam-bowling all-rounder, but off the evidence of this series, he’s not it
Thakur (2 wickets at 72, 46 runs at 15.33), 3/10 ditto Reddy
Kamboj (1 wicket for 89), 1/10 not going to make it in Test cricket, sorry
Jaiswal (411 runs at 41.1, 2 100s, 2 50s) 7/10, started off very well, tailed off (his ton at the Oval was undeniably chancy)
Rahul (532 runs at 53.2, 2 100s, 2 50s) 8/10, contributed in all Tests apart from the last one
Sudharsan (140 runs at 23.33, 1 50), 4/10, decent 50 at OT, got in in tough batting conditions at the Oval, a baptism of fire, but I think he’s worth persisting with
Gill (754 runs at 75.4, 4 100s), 9/10, Lord’s and a stupid run-out the only real blots on an otherwise stunning series
Pant (479 runs at 68.42, 7 catches), 9/10, a warrior, contributed in every match with the bat and a solid series with the gloves too
Nair (205 runs at 25.62, 1 50), 5/10, often did the hard bit by getting in, which is always the hard bit, then found a way to get out. Technically he did outperform Sai Sudharsan, but you wonder how much more rope he’ll get
Jadeja (516 runs at 86, 1 100, 5 50s, 7 wickets at 72.42), 8/10, great series with the bat (if you’re being hyper critical maybe he could have got a jog on at Lord’s during the chase), understandably not much of a factor with the ball
Sundar (284 runs at 47.33, 1 100, 1 50, 7 wickets at 38.57), 8/10, brilliant series, must be a fixture in the team going forward. Could get into the team solely on his batting, but even so, his bowling in unfriendly conditions was the best of any spinner
Akash Deep (13 wickets at 36.46, 80 runs at 20, 1 50), 7/10 decent with the ball, and a crucial 50 with the bat. Is it too much to ask of him to bat at 8? Out of all of India’s seamers he's definitely the best with the bat
Bumrah (14 wickets at 26), 8/10, not at his sparkling best, kept his average just below 20, but still fine figures by anyone’s reckoning in these conditions. Fatigue or not fatigue, he’d have been gutted to miss out on the green Oval pitch!
Siraj (23 wickets at 32.43) 8/10, superhuman effort, you’d never have known this was his 5th Test on the bounce! His heart and his stamina will be the main talking point, but he doesn’t lack for skill neither
Krishna (14 wickets at 37.07) 7/10, shaky start, but made up for it at the Oval
Jurel (53 runs at 26.5, 8 catches, 2 stumpings) 7/10, one Test with the bat in which he did OK, kept well up at the stumps to Deep, thought he was unlucky to have a lot of balls swing past him at Lord’s
Reddy (3 wickets at 37, 45 runs at 11.25), 4/10, a bit ‘bits and pieces’ isn’t he? I know India really want a seam-bowling all-rounder, but off the evidence of this series, he’s not it
Thakur (2 wickets at 72, 46 runs at 15.33), 3/10 ditto Reddy
Kamboj (1 wicket for 89), 1/10 not going to make it in Test cricket, sorry