• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

****OFFICIAL**** Imran Khan vs Botham Debate Thread

Who was better?

  • Imran Khan

    Votes: 40 75.5%
  • Ian Botham

    Votes: 13 24.5%

  • Total voters
    53
  • Poll closed .
marc71178 said:
If that's so then, how come Imran never really performed with both aspects in the same series, yet the supposed part-timer had several such series?
10 wickets & a 100 in the same game,did Sobers ever do it?
Imran Khan's peak period was 10 yers in which he averaged 50+ with the bat & around 20 with the ball,whereas the peak period of Gary Sobers & Ian Botham was hardly 5 years.Moreover,Sobers never averaged below 20 during any period of his career.
 
Lillian Thomson said:
It's a bit odd to use Sobers bowling record as an excuse to say he's not a genuine allrounder .
Yeah,its always fair to use the records only when it aids u idiots in proving your points.U people r hypocrites really.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
BhupinderSingh said:
Yeah,its always fair to use the records only when it aids u idiots in proving your points.U people r hypocrites really.

What a surprise, resorting to childish insults when proved to be talking nonsense.:cool:
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
BhupinderSingh said:
That holds true for u more than it does for me as U haven't proed me wrong yet.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:sleep: :sleep:
Another loser for the ignore list, someone wake me if by chance he posts something worth reading.:happy:
 

C_C

International Captain
Sorry but Sobers is untouchable as an allrounder.
Its one thing being one of the best fast bowlers going around who can bat a bit ( and yes, i say a bit because none of Imran, Botham, Miller, Dev, Hadlee etc. were top class top order batsmen) but its far harder to be an alltime great batsman who could also bowl well and field well.
Sobers was the team and its worth mentioning that Sobers' bowling record took a dive later on in his career when he bowled spin trying to buy a wicket, considering he was getting old and after 20 years you cant exactly bat for a day and then come bowl pace the next.
Sober's pace bowling was quite good actually- good enough for him to hold his own taking the new ball alongside Wes Hall and turn out to be the better bowler regularly.
Plus an alltime great fielder to boot.
Just to give you an idea, Sobers is what you get when you combine Brian Lara's batting, Ashley Giles's bowling, Vaas's bowling and Mark Taylor's or Junior's catching.

Sobers is the best and the argument, IMO, should only be for #2.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
Sorry but Sobers is untouchable as an allrounder.
Its one thing being one of the best fast bowlers going around who can bat a bit ( and yes, i say a bit because none of Imran, Botham, Miller, Dev, Hadlee etc. were top class top order batsmen) but its far harder to be an alltime great batsman who could also bowl well and field well.
Sobers was the team and its worth mentioning that Sobers' bowling record took a dive later on in his career when he bowled spin trying to buy a wicket, considering he was getting old and after 20 years you cant exactly bat for a day and then come bowl pace the next.
Sober's pace bowling was quite good actually- good enough for him to hold his own taking the new ball alongside Wes Hall and turn out to be the better bowler regularly.
Plus an alltime great fielder to boot.
Just to give you an idea, Sobers is what you get when you combine Brian Lara's batting, Ashley Giles's bowling, Vaas's bowling and Mark Taylor's or Junior's catching.

Sobers is the best and the argument, IMO, should only be for #2.
top analysis of Sobers here, very well put.
 
And, What??? reading on a bit further up the page, I can't believe what I'm seeing.

Is anyone sane actually questioning Sobers' status as being out on his own as by far the greatest allrounder in history.

I'll put it down to a misunderstanding and not check for fear of being disappointed.
 

umair_103pk

Cricket Spectator
i have reading this thread for a long time and decided to join in the hot debate.
Bottham ,Kapil ,Hadlee all were great allrounder but it was Imran who tops all of them. He was a super fast terror bowler at pekof his carieer 1980-83 way more fast than the other three allrounders when he got injured. If that didn't happened he could have been the first bowler in the history to have 500 kills tally but he was unlucky and didn't bowled a single delivery for 3 years. He is ranked as the third greatest bowler in test cricket history and one of the greatest captian to have captained in the game. All other three men's performence declined with time and age but Imran's performence improved even when he was way past his prime and was not the fast bowler who terrorised batsmen in the 80s he was the backbone of the Pakistani batting lineup. And has one of the best carrier endings in the history retired as the captian of Champions of the world. In 2001 he ranked as the 8th greatest cricketer in the cricket history by ESPN in the Legends of Cricket way up bottham.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
And, What??? reading on a bit further up the page, I can't believe what I'm seeing.

Is anyone sane actually questioning Sobers' status as being out on his own as by far the greatest allrounder in history.

I'll put it down to a misunderstanding and not check for fear of being disappointed.
Dont check in that case :)
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
To say that Imran is the games greatest all rounder EVER isn't far different from saying Sachin is the games greatest batsman EVER and mostly the sentiment driving the two statements would be the same :)
 

biased indian

International Coach
i have reading this thread for a long time and decided to join in the hot debate.
Bottham ,Kapil ,Hadlee all were great allrounder but it was Imran who tops all of them. He was a super fast terror bowler at pekof his carieer 1980-83 way more fast than the other three allrounders when he got injured. If that didn't happened he could have been the first bowler in the history to have 500 kills tally but he was unlucky and didn't bowled a single delivery for 3 years. He is ranked as the third greatest bowler in test cricket history and one of the greatest captian to have captained in the game. All other three men's performence declined with time and age but Imran's performence improved even when he was way past his prime and was not the fast bowler who terrorised batsmen in the 80s he was the backbone of the Pakistani batting lineup. And has one of the best carrier endings in the history retired as the captian of Champions of the world. In 2001 he ranked as the 8th greatest cricketer in the cricket history by ESPN in the Legends of Cricket way up bottham.
one post and its a great Dig

welcome mate
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
one post and its a great Dig

welcome mate
Its a great dig maybe but there are some other points of view.

Imran's overall career records as a bowler and as a batsman do appear to say something in his favour but when you look closely you see a different Picture. Before I go further, I prefer to clarify that Kapil and Hadlee are not in the picture. certainly not Hadlee. Its mostly about Imran and Botham.

Having seen Imran from close quarters throughout his career I can easily see two distinct phases in his game. After the first short spell as a difficult (in every rspect) tearaway fast bowler he settled down to bowl as only an all time great would. Watching him bowl ata time when one was active playing grade cricket, one womdered whether there was any way to play this fantastic bowler. He looked completely unplayable. Imran during his best bwoling years was way way ahead of competition.

The problem is that during this period he was just a useful lower middle order batsman. It is impossible for me to close my eyes and look back at that time and discover a batsman in Imran who could have played for Pakistan (or any other international side then) as a pure batsman. He never looked that much of a batsman.

Later as a captain and as his bowling declined he took his batting very seriously and became one of the more difficult batsmen in Pakistan to dislodge. I would even offer that at this stage of his career his major claim to a place in the Pakistani side was a the best captain they ever had and as a very useful and fighting middle order batsman who also bowled. This continued till the end of his career. I dont see much of an over lapping period between these two Imrans. On top of that he was always a safe but never brilliant fielder.

Botham on the other hand started his career as someone who could do anything and everything on the cricket field. In his first quarter to one third of his career he challenged anyone to the title of the games best all rounder ever. Sobers included. He was a superb hard hitting batsman who played all the strokes with a clean swing of the arms and with a technique which would dissappoint few puritans. He bowled with vigour and pace, had a great out swinger, and could bowl bouncers and bring the occasional ball in to great effect. To top it all he was one of the world's leading close in fielders. During this phase Botham could have played for any international side for his batting or bowling alone.

His decline once it came is what made this debate what it has become. No one thought at that time, when he was conquering all, that there was any.

So we can take our pick on how to assess two players. :sleep:
 
Last edited:

Fusion

Global Moderator
A lot of people often comment that Imran never had a period where he was good with both the ball and the bat. While it is true that towards the end of his career he was mostly playing as a batsman, he was still an outstanding allrounder. Here are his figures for his last 50 tests:

Batting Average: 51
Centuries: 5
Fifties: 14
Bowling Average: 20.12
Wickets: 195
Strike Rate: 49.1
Best: 8/60

No matter how you cut it, those are great figures for an allrounder. And as Engle pointed out, Imran has a better record (compared to Botham) as an all-rounder against the best: West Indies. I believe Imran over-all was clearly the better all-rounder.
 
Last edited:

Fusion

Global Moderator
Imran stood up to arguably the most formidable team ever, the WIndies

Just to emphasize this, here are the stats (that Engle compiled earlier):

v West Indies
Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w Ct St

IK 18 775 123 27.67 1 3 80 7/80 21.18 6 4 0
IB 20 792 81 21.40 0 4 61 8/103 35.18 3 19 0[/QUOTE]
 

Swervy

International Captain
A lot of people often comment that Imran never had a period where he was good with both the ball and the bat. While it is true that towards the end of his career he was mostly playing as a batsman, he was still an outstanding allrounder. Here are his figures for his last 50 tests:

Batting Average: 51
Centuries: 5
Fifties: 14
Bowling Average: 20.12
Wickets: 195
Strike Rate: 49.1
Best: 8/60

No matter how you cut it, those are great figures for an allrounder. And as Engle pointed out, Imran has a better record (compared to Botham) as an all-rounder against the best: West Indies. I believe Imran over-all was clearly the better all-rounder.
was wondering when the old last 50 tests stats were gonna come out.

As has been said before, he may well have averaged 51 in that time, but that flatters him more than any average I have ever seen of any player. He was not that good with the bat.
As I have said before, the number of times he performed with the bat and it played a major part in Pakistan winning or saving a game are minimal. Compare that to Botham, who frequently turned games in Englands favour with the bat
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
was wondering when the old last 50 tests stats were gonna come out.

As has been said before, he may well have averaged 51 in that time, but that flatters him more than any average I have ever seen of any player. He was not that good with the bat.
As I have said before, the number of times he performed with the bat and it played a major part in Pakistan winning or saving a game are minimal. Compare that to Botham, who frequently turned games in Englands favour with the bat
So basically Imran was putting up empty numbers? It's funny how people knock down his record. First they claim he was never good with the bat and ball at the same time. Then when stats are shown displaying the opposite, they are merely "empty numbers". However, it's ok to selectively pick a period for Botham when he was at his best and ignore his massive decline. How's that fair?
 

Top