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***Official*** Australia in England (The Ashes)

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
FaaipDeOiad said:
I really don't think so. Hopes is a much better OD bowler, and the difference in their batting quality might be huge if you're talking about batting at 4 and forging an innings, but if you're going to stick Watson in at 7 to have a bit of a hit in the dying overs his superior quality probably isn't going to show, and with his superior hitting ability Hopes is a better option.
I don't think his better OD bowling comes into it as he is used as 5th Bowler, not a front line bowler. If he playing as a top 4 bowler batting at 8 then i would go for Hopes, but at No 7 you can go for the lesser bowler. Hopes is only slightly better hitter then Watson, so it not a big issue either.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
FaaipDeOiad said:
I'm a bit disappointed that Hopes isn't in the ODI squad. I think he deserves another go, given that he did nothing wrong on debut and in fact bowled rather beautifully and was close to man of the match. The best Australian ODI squad at the moment would be

Hayden
Gilchrist
Ponting
Martyn
Symonds
Clarke
Hopes
Hogg
Lee
Gillespie
McGrath

If Hayden's run of poor form continues, he can be taken out and Clarke can open with Hussey at 6. Either way, Watson isn't suited at all to playing as a bowling all-rounder in ODIs and they shouldn't make him do so, nor should they rely on Symonds and Clarke to send down 10 overs between them. If Hopes fails other options can be looked at, but he certainly deserves a go.
nahh faaip even though Watson may not be suited has a OD bowling all-rounder he hasn't done such a bad job at it at all.

Hopes looked good has a bowler in that 4th ODI but sending him at 7 at this stage is a risk, I have heard that his batting has been pretty good for queensland last season but i dont think he is a better bat than Watson, but no doubt sooner rather than later he will be in the aussie ODI side.

Also i agree that if Hayden doesn't get on hinches in ODI cricket pup will replace him at the top, since in see a Gilchrist/Clarke opening Partnership in the 2007 WC in any case.

For me the best aussie ODI line up is:

Gilchrist
Hayden
Ponting
Martyn
Symonds
Hussey
Clarke
Watson
Lee
Gillespie
McGrath

in the middle order with Symonds, Clarke & Hussey that could alter according to match situation. If the aussies get off to a superb start say 150 plus for 2 that line-up could remain but sya they loose early wickets and are 60 for 3 Symo could go down to no.7 & Hussey could move up to # 5 & pup at 6.
 

Eclipse

International Debutant
King_Ponting said:
I'd say Ponting... Just by looking at Pontings ability to accelerate after looking bogged down in an innings is extraordinary. Just look at the innings he played in the world cup final, his first 50 looked sluggish and his next 90 well that was amazing...... Pontings ability to hit sixes one handed also comes in handy, Quite a piece of willoew he has at the moment :)
If he had a few more overs up his sleve in the world cup he would have made 200 i reckon..

It's not like he goes out with the frame of mind to hit a lot of sixes but when he decides to he's as good or better at hitting out than almost everyone.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
FaaipDeOiad said:
I really don't think so. Hopes is a much better OD bowler, and the difference in their batting quality might be huge if you're talking about batting at 4 and forging an innings, but if you're going to stick Watson in at 7 to have a bit of a hit in the dying overs his superior quality probably isn't going to show, and with his superior hitting ability Hopes is a better option.
And what if they get caught on a real seamer and are 5 down after 20 overs?
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
aussie said:
nahh faaip even though Watson may not be suited has a OD bowling all-rounder he hasn't done such a bad job at it at all.
32 games, 21 wickets @ 45.66, eco of 4.67

It's passable, but when Kenya, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe games are removed there's not a lot left!

16 wickets in 28 games @ 53.94, eco of 4.83

That's a definite weak link!
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
marc71178 said:
And what if they get caught on a real seamer and are 5 down after 20 overs?
What if they are? Unless you suggest Australia plays nothing but all-rounders, there's not much that can be done. Really, at 5 down you would have one top 6 batsman + hopes, with Hogg, Lee and Gillespie to come. Not as bad as it could be.

The alternative with Watson instead of hopes in that situation is better of course, but I think Hopes deserves another go before being written off after such a good debut.
 
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King_Ponting

International Regular
marc71178 said:
32 games, 21 wickets @ 45.66, eco of 4.67

It's passable, but when Kenya, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe games are removed there's not a lot left!

16 wickets in 28 games @ 53.94, eco of 4.83

That's a definite weak link!
A point ive raised on occasions. I think that with the bowling atack they have already they should take a risk and play hussey at 7. Who, by the way is a master at hitting out in the latter stages of a one day match and has the uncanny knack of keeping his wicket intact.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
King_Ponting said:
A point ive raised on occasions. I think that with the bowling atack they have already they should take a risk and play hussey at 7. Who, by the way is a master at hitting out in the latter stages of a one day match and has the uncanny knack of keeping his wicket intact.
Playing Hussey at 7 is fine, but it does mean that 10 overs will have to come from he, Symonds and Clarke, which without Hopes in the squad seems like the best move. Seems like that will happen anyway, with McGrath, Gillespie, Lee and Hogg playing as the specialists, and Gillespie and McGrath rotating out for Kasprowicz. I just hope they don't waste Watson at 8 any more, it's ridiculous. He's a batting all-rounder and they are treating him like Brad Hogg.
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
The problem for Watson is that Australia have so many top batsmen that never seems to be a spot for him as a batting all rounder. Out goes Lehmann and Bevan, in comes Hussey and Katich, then you still have Hodge on the sidelines. Hopefully for him their is a couple of injuries that he geta run in the top 6, like Symonds did in the last WC. But ATM it seems the only spot for him is a bowling all rounder.
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
If we're comparing Watson & Hopes there is no doubt in my mind that Hopes is the better bowling allroundeer and Watson the better batting allrounder. Hopes has probably been the most economical bowler in the ING Cup over the last few seasons and he takes wickets too (a lot of those are due to Secombe's great keeping up to the stumps). He can also score very quickly, but he's obviously not as reliable as Watson with the bat. Watson is the perfect batting allrounder in ODIs. He can open the batting and bat as low as 5 and can easily bowl 10 threatening overs, but when batting he really needs to build his innings, unlike Hopes he really struggles when he has to hit out from ball one.
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
chaminda_00 said:
The problem for Watson is that Australia have so many top batsmen that never seems to be a spot for him as a batting all rounder. Out goes Lehmann and Bevan, in comes Hussey and Katich, then you still have Hodge on the sidelines. Hopefully for him their is a couple of injuries that he geta run in the top 6, like Symonds did in the last WC. But ATM it seems the only spot for him is a bowling all rounder.
Is Hodge in the one day side? If he is that's ********, and I don't think he should even be considered let alone a spot in the top 6. The problem for Watson is that the selectors see him in the Aussie line up as a bowling allrounder - what a disgrace it was for him to bat below Gilchrist in his only test. Until they realise he is a batting allrounder the better off Australia and Watson will be.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Mister Wright said:
Is Hodge in the one day side? If he is that's ********, and I don't think he should even be considered let alone a spot in the top 6. The problem for Watson is that the selectors see him in the Aussie line up as a bowling allrounder - what a disgrace it was for him to bat below Gilchrist in his only test. Until they realise he is a batting allrounder the better off Australia and Watson will be.
I regard Watson as highly as the next man, but to say it's a "disgrace" for him to bat behind Gilchrist is so far over the top it's not funny.

Watson, I'm sure, felt privileged even to be in the same side as him.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Mister Wright said:
If we're comparing Watson & Hopes there is no doubt in my mind that Hopes is the better bowling allroundeer and Watson the better batting allrounder. Hopes has probably been the most economical bowler in the ING Cup over the last few seasons and he takes wickets too (a lot of those are due to Secombe's great keeping up to the stumps). He can also score very quickly, but he's obviously not as reliable as Watson with the bat. Watson is the perfect batting allrounder in ODIs. He can open the batting and bat as low as 5 and can easily bowl 10 threatening overs, but when batting he really needs to build his innings, unlike Hopes he really struggles when he has to hit out from ball one.
Great post.

Wouldn't be suprised if long term damage, psyche-wise, is done to Watson as a result of how he's being told to play at the moment, as compared to how he'll need to play in the future.
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
social said:
I regard Watson as highly as the next man, but to say it's a "disgrace" for him to bat behind Gilchrist is so far over the top it's not funny.

Watson, I'm sure, felt privileged even to be in the same side as him.
It was an utter disgrace! A guy who bats at four for his State (even pushes Andrew Symonds from 4 to 5) can't bat at 6 at test level? What a joke! It wasn't like he was doing a truck load of bowling that he had to bat at 7. There were 4 bowlers in there and he only had about 13 overs in the first innings, and Australia were in such a dominant position that McGrath could have come in at 7, so why not see what he has got, rather than sending in someone we know can do the job?
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
vic_orthdox said:
Great post.

Wouldn't be suprised if long term damage, psyche-wise, is done to Watson as a result of how he's being told to play at the moment, as compared to how he'll need to play in the future.
Exactly. I can't see the reasoning behind this push to get young players into the team, especially if it is detrimental to their future chances. We all know Watson is a talented player, but is it best for the team him, doing a role that is not suited to him? Play someone like Hopes who fully deserves his chance as a bowling allrounder, and give Watson plenty of time in domestic cricket to build experience, and take him on the test tours to give him experience, or even play a vital role as an allrounder if conditions warrant. But why waste him in the one day side, when it quite possibly could have ramifications for the future?
 

KennyD

International Vice-Captain
Mister Wright said:
It was an utter disgrace! A guy who bats at four for his State (even pushes Andrew Symonds from 4 to 5) can't bat at 6 at test level? What a joke! It wasn't like he was doing a truck load of bowling that he had to bat at 7. There were 4 bowlers in there and he only had about 13 overs in the first innings, and Australia were in such a dominant position that McGrath could have come in at 7, so why not see what he has got, rather than sending in someone we know can do the job?
I dont think its that he 'cant' bat at 6 at test level, I think he can, but Australia as of late hasn't been all for the attitude of "hey lets toss him in here to see if he can do the job, instead of gilly who we know can", particularly in test matches. And there would be fair outrage if Watson was placed higher that Gilchrist, because there are more than enough people who believe Gilchrist doesn't bat high enough in tests.
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
KennyD said:
I dont think its that he 'cant' bat at 6 at test level, I think he can, but Australia as of late hasn't been all for the attitude of "hey lets toss him in here to see if he can do the job, instead of gilly who we know can", particularly in test matches. And there would be fair outrage if Watson was placed higher that Gilchrist, because there are more than enough people who believe Gilchrist doesn't bat high enough in tests.
It is like sending Katich or Clarke in at 7. They are batsman, so is Watson - it just happens that Watson can also roll his arm over like a front line bowler. He handled batting at 3 and 4 and bowling 15-20 overs an innings for Qld, with him bowling less overs in the test side, I see no reason to bat him below Gilchrist, who has surely had to do more work with the gloves.
 

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