Monty and Swann

[Jigga988]

You what?

Bopara's FC average: 40.82
Shah's FC average: 42.99

i meant for the past season.

 

[Richard]

sorry got a bit confused with the whole quoting little bits of a text thing.

One thing you always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always need is a [QUOTE] tag and a [/QUOTE] tag. Don't have both of these, it'll always go wrong.

Report your own post and a mod can fix it up for you if you want.

 

[Richard]

I dont think these are his biggest flaws and i dont think that these effect him as adversely as his trigger movements. The way that when the ball is bowled he is practically always going back.

I can't say I've ever noticed any massive flaws in Cook's trigger movements. Nor, however, have I ever studied them in great detail, nor watched as someone else has done. I have always been worried by his playing around that front pad, though, as all you need to exploit this is a decent right-arm inswing bowler. Of all people, Sourav Ganguly managed it in the England-India series.

 

[Richard]

Firstly I dont mind Cook at all. I also dont mind the suposed "technical issues".

He has a good record at all levels, I like his compact game and, even if things are supposedly 'wrong' with his game right now, he scored 4 50s in 7 innings in his last series against a strong SA attack.

Maybe most importantly he is a young player that can make good contributions. He isnt out of his depth whilst learning the game.

I dont like Key. I dont like his temperament, I dont like his ability to handle pressure, Im not overly keen on his technique and I question his ability to step up a level.

Now, if Cook was failing left, right and centre and Key was a run machine then I could see the reasons for a callup (even if I disagreed). However, that isnt the case. It just isnt that cut and dried.

Key has been a run-machine though. Like Shah, he's barely stopped scoring since 2001.

Cook will of course almost certainly end-up a better batsman than Key. He is young and will hopefully improve; Key now is almost certainly about as good as he'll ever be. Cook, as I mentioned earlier, is doing decently in spite of the obvious technical flaws in his game, which demonstrates the excellence of his shot-selection.

But nonetheless, if I had a Test series against two seriously good opening bowlers starting tomorrow who I knew would be fit throughout the series and wouldn't bowl a bad new-ball spell, I'd have Key ahead of Cook to try to combat them. I wouldn't be expecting Key to be as successful as Strauss, because I fully acknowledge the possible flaws in his game you mention.

However, it remains the case, to my mind, that Key's flaws are merely "possibles", not absolute certainties. Cook's I can see with my own eyes, and have done, plenty.

 

[aussie]

You'd need Samit Patel at 6 if you were to do that. Can't have four pacemen without any backup, what if Freddie's ankle or Sidebottom's back goes?

Lol, well what are the physio's for?. Sidebottom unlike Freddie & Jones isn't really that much of walking crock, so once he recovers i don't expect him to be breaking down.

At the end of the day Flintoff isn't good enough to be batting @ 6 just ATM. I'd probably consider though with Fred @ 7, 2 quicks & monty (even though i have been disappointed with his progress.

Patel?. Very surprised to see him actually being considered as a test match option.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

There are 2 Tests in India and then England go to WI after Christmas.

So the question is, how bad does Panesar have to bowl or/and how well does Swann have to bowl in India for Swann to be the number 1 spinner for the WI tour?

I cant see it happening but maybe others can.

They've both well enough on a last day turner in India to merit a recall for Shaun Udal.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Lol, well what are the physio's for?. Sidebottom unlike Freddie & Jones isn't really that much of walking crock, so once he recovers i don't expect him to be breaking down.

At the end of the day Flintoff isn't good enough to be batting @ 6 just ATM. I'd probably consider though with Fred @ 7, 2 quicks & monty (even though i have been disappointed with his progress.

Patel?. Very surprised to see him actually being considered as a test match option.

I'm very surprised to see Panesar being considered as a Test match option, but donkeys and declaration slogs keep boosting his figures whilst his effective contribution is terrible.

As I've been saying all along most of the time England should pick Patel and their 4 best seamers. On the other decks bring Swann in. Panesar can go and rot in County Cricket.


The thing that really worries me is Panesar will get picked against WI, get gifted his usual hatful of wickets by their non-batsmen and that'll be justification for keeping him in for another 1-2 seasons.

 

[Woodster]

As I've been saying all along most of the time England should pick Patel and their 4 best seamers. On the other decks bring Swann in. Panesar can go and rot in County Cricket.

Samit Patel should only be selected if he is considered to be one of the six best batsmen in the country, which imo he currently is not. His bowling is innocuous and it would not be fair on him to be selected with any kind of emphasis on his bowling. Yes it is handy part-time, no better.

 

[Uppercut]

Samit Patel should only be selected if he is considered to be one of the six best batsmen in the country, which imo he currently is not. His bowling is innocuous and it would not be fair on him to be selected with any kind of emphasis on his bowling. Yes it is handy part-time, no better.

Fair enough, but if that's the case, you can't play four seamers which is what aussie was suggesting.

 

[wpdavid]

Even allowing for Panesar having not played any FC cricket for months and the fact that India play spin better than anyone, today's performance adds a whole lot of weight to the argument for not picking him anymore. OK, if he cleans up in the next test then I'll deny ever writing that, but his whole game has seemed to be going backwards, even before this match. Given that any spinner we play isn't going to do a lot against any side that's any good, Swann may well only have to be mildly competent to overtake him.

I'm wondering if our side to start the WI series may be:
Strauss, Cook, Shah, KP, Collingwood, Fred, Prior, Broad, Swann, Anderson & Harmison

Hopefully Harmison won't get too many freebies in the Caribbean and Jones will be fit enough to replace him next summer.

 

[Richard]

Or, better, Sidebottom might just play the whole series instead of Harmison.

 

[Woodster]

Fair enough, but if that's the case, you can't play four seamers which is what aussie was suggesting.

Why can you not play 4 seamers ?

 

[Precambrian]

To be fair to him, Panesar tried as much as he can today. He managed to pitch many of his deliveries in the rough, whereupon it spat and jumped. However he picked the wrong guy to use that tactic. Tendulkar was never walking into that trap, and whenever the ball was pitched up a bit, he employed the paddle sweep.

However it is beyond me why he didn't use the rough against Yuvraj Singh. Maybe it's that he never got to bowl at Yuvraj for a length of time, as the fields were spread and allowed the batsmen to rotate strike. However he was guilty of pitching it short enough for the batsmen to play it super-late. He would do well to learn that in the subcontinent less speed, more loop and more pitching up would get him rewards than the fastish good length which Bracken would be proud of.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Samit Patel should only be selected if he is considered to be one of the six best batsmen in the country, which imo he currently is not. His bowling is innocuous and it would not be fair on him to be selected with any kind of emphasis on his bowling. Yes it is handy part-time, no better.

How do you know whether he's one of the best 6 or not? He's got a very good FC record with the bat and apart from KP our batting is pretty average.

Patel would come in for a spin bowler, so he doesn't even need to oust someone rubbish like Ian Bell. England need to face up to the reality that their spinners are average and are not going to do anything other than chip in occasionally. Their best chance is to go with their 4 best seamers and have some depth in batting to compensate for the lack of quality, Patel allows them to do this.

 

[Uppercut]

Why can you not play 4 seamers ?

Because one can so easily break down. Even if it's only for a session, you could end up with an extended spell from Paul Collingwood or the like. With the added pressure of having to bowl a quarter of the team's overs (more if one of the others bowls badly), an injury is a lot more likely.

The West Indies do it, but they have Chris Gayle- against NZ in the first innings, he bowled 21 out of 116 overs (taking three top-order wickets). Were India to try it, they'd still have Virender Sehwag to run through a few quick overs. Australia do it sometimes but with Symonds and Clarke in the team. South Africa have Jacques Kallis, so there'll always be five bowlers. Four seamers plus Paul Collingwood/Kevin Pietersen, unless the latter in particular proves himself to be a decent part-timer, is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Precambrian]

How do you know whether he's one of the best 6 or not? He's got a very good FC record with the bat and apart from KP our batting is pretty average.

Patel would come in for a spin bowler, so he doesn't even need to oust someone rubbish like Ian Bell. England need to face up to the reality that their spinners are average and are not going to do anything other than chip in occasionally. Their best chance is to go with their 4 best seamers and have some depth in batting to compensate for the lack of quality, Patel allows them to do this.

Indians would be licking with anticipation to see a parttimer spinner in operation at Mohali.

 

[Uppercut]

To be fair to him, Panesar tried as much as he can today. He managed to pitch many of his deliveries in the rough, whereupon it spat and jumped. However he picked the wrong guy to use that tactic. Tendulkar was never walking into that trap, and whenever the ball was pitched up a bit, he employed the paddle sweep.

However it is beyond me why he didn't use the rough against Yuvraj Singh. Maybe it's that he never got to bowl at Yuvraj for a length of time, as the fields were spread and allowed the batsmen to rotate strike. However he was guilty of pitching it short enough for the batsmen to play it super-late. He would do well to learn that in the subcontinent less speed, more loop and more pitching up would get him rewards than the fastish good length which Bracken would be proud of.

Yeah, Panesar's problem has always been exactly that- no flight, no variation. I think he still has a lot of scope for improvement as a bowler, but it's disappointing that he hasn't seemed to get even slightly better since his debut. He already has the advantage of putting more rotations on the ball than some leg-spinners, if he could toss them up, throw in a few arm-balls and change his pace he'd be far more effective. Would be good if he could learn to bat and/or field, too.

 

[Woodster]

How do you know whether he's one of the best 6 or not? He's got a very good FC record with the bat and apart from KP our batting is pretty average.

Patel would come in for a spin bowler, so he doesn't even need to oust someone rubbish like Ian Bell. England need to face up to the reality that their spinners are average and are not going to do anything other than chip in occasionally. Their best chance is to go with their 4 best seamers and have some depth in batting to compensate for the lack of quality, Patel allows them to do this.

It's not for me to decide if he is one of the six best batsmen in the country, as I don't get paid to make such a decision, I only have an opinion. My opinion is that at the moment I would back six other batsmen ahead of him to be more successful in Test cricket.

I appreciate that while he would add depth to the batting, although it should not be necessary to have him coming in at 8 or wherever you may propose, when we could have a specialist bowler in that position, a bowler that would bring much more to the side than Patel, not necessarily a spinner.

If Patel is to play for England in the future, it should be as a top 6 batsman.

 

[Precambrian]

Yeah, Panesar's problem has always been exactly that- no flight, no variation. I think he still has a lot of scope for improvement as a bowler, but it's disappointing that he hasn't seemed to get even slightly better since his debut. He already has the advantage of putting more rotations on the ball than some leg-spinners, if he could toss them up, throw in a few arm-balls and change his pace he'd be far more effective. Would be good if he could learn to bat and/or field, too.

Yep. I think he needs some "good" guidance. England would do well to get Mr. Bedi involved here. He is lacking professional guidance for long and is harsh on him to be expected to be the complete spinner at his age, without any mentoring. He is certainly no Warne or Murali to make his dough just on his inherent talent.

 

[andruid]

Yeah, Panesar's problem has always been exactly that- no flight, no variation. I think he still has a lot of scope for improvement as a bowler, but it's disappointing that he hasn't seemed to get even slightly better since his debut. He already has the advantage of putting more rotations on the ball than some leg-spinners, if he could toss them up, throw in a few arm-balls and change his pace he'd be far more effective. Would be good if he could learn to bat and/or field, too.

Someone on the Guardian lambasted the ECB for exactly this. They shelled out on getting all sorts of pace bowling experts like Cooley for instance to ensure the English pace attack was up to step with all the tricks in the book but it seems that they are quite willing to allow fingerspinners like Monty to mark time whilst the swoon over the likes of Rashid, who for all we know could end up a batsman with fairly useful spin rather than the English Warne the ECB wants.

I will go and dig up the article just now

*Digs up article*