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Johnson V Flintoff

Which player will be more dominant in coming 3 years?


  • Total voters
    61
  • Poll closed .

Burgey

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You cannnot put me to sleep as i am the large bloke :laugh:,You are simply stat minded
fan so you will never get the point,But you will get it in recent future when flintoff,johnson,steyn will compete with each other and we will see who is the better bowler.
 

Burgey

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Think I'll waste all the bytes I like. Thanks though. Really appreciate the input :)
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Enought with the antagonising, please. Couple of senior members should be above that.

Oh, and no more talk of how much you'd like to punch someone, thanks.
 

oitoitoi

State Vice-Captain
You cannnot put me to sleep as i am the large bloke :laugh:,You are simply stat minded
fan so you will never get the point,But you will get it in recent future when flintoff,johnson,steyn will compete with each other and we will see who is the better bowler.
They already have you idiot and will continue to do so this summer. Do you actually watch non-India matches? If by large you mean obese then I'm not surprised, by the sounds of it you've never played a days cricket (or sport full stop) in your life.

That over to Kallis was a bit of a joke, they hadn't fixed the sight screen, it was too short and Kallis couldn't see the ball coming out of his hand. Flintoff knew this. Kaliis mentioned it after the days play but they said they weren't going to fix it mid match and players should just put up with it for now, oh those glorious English grounds...
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
They already have you idiot and will continue to do so this summer. Do you actually watch non-India matches? If by large you mean obese then I'm not surprised, by the sounds of it you've never played a days cricket (or sport full stop) in your life.

That over to Kallis was a bit of a joke, they hadn't fixed the sight screen, it was too short and Kallis couldn't see the ball coming out of his hand. Flintoff knew this. Kaliis mentioned it after the days play but they said they weren't going to fix it mid match and players should just put up with it for now, oh those glorious English grounds...
Ah, Pietersen is crap against good teams, Flintoff's great bowling was a result of the sightscreen (the sightscreen may have benefitted the bowler - but a 'joke' GTFO - it was fantastic bowling)....one more and we may have ourselves a little trend.
 

oitoitoi

State Vice-Captain
Ah, Pietersen is crap against good teams, Flintoff's great bowling was a result of the sightscreen (the sightscreen may have benefitted the bowler - but a 'joke' GTFO - it was fantastic bowling)....one more and we may have ourselves a little trend.
It was fantastic theatre, fantastic bowling...I'm not so sure, was made to look better by Kallis picking up the ball so late. It wasn't in the same league as the over he bowled to Ponting in 05.

I didn't say Pietersen was crap against top teams, I said that in backs to wall situations or really difficult conditions against top bowlers that can make use of them he fails regularly (in fairness most batsmen do, but it stops Pietersen entering the Lara, Tendulkar or even Dravid categories). Against top teams in your run'o'the mill 1st innings (or even 2nd on a good surface) he'll probably hit a hundred 2 out of 3 times. I think that Mcgrath and Ambrose at their peaks would definitely have made him their bunnies though, their stock ball is his biggest weakness, Asif exploited it brilliantly when he came to England, short of length on off stump with a bit of bounce, Pietersen kept trying to get forward and muscle it through midwicket, kept getting out to him (4 times in a row IIRC).

That's why when comparing this England side to the one 10 years ago I'd take Thorpe ahead of Pietersen every time. In fact Atherton and Stewart are some of my favourite ever players, Thorpe too (though he ruined my first ever India match by winning it for England, 1995(?) Texaco Trophy).

I'm not some England hating cricket fanatic, if you've ever read any of my posts about how I'd like to see the English domestic system change and the ECB hire former test players rather than beauracrats you'd know that. English cricket seems to keep shooting itself in the foot, like Ponting said recently, "Everywhere they go something seems to go wrong".
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
LOL - I won'tget into the Pietersen argument with you again, and there isn't much to argue RE Flintoff to Kallis - I think it was fantastic bowling, you don't, I'll happily leave it at that. Whether it was in the same league as that over in 2005 is neither here nor there, it doesn't really relate to the quality of Fred's bowling last summer...

I never said you were some England-hating fanaticm, but you do come across as one of these people who thinks they have greater grounds for talking down the quality of the players because you live in the country and don't support them...

Regarding Thorpe & Pietersen - well I don't see why we need to choose, it would have been great to have them both in the same side
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
That over to Kallis was a bit of a joke, they hadn't fixed the sight screen, it was too short and Kallis couldn't see the ball coming out of his hand. Flintoff knew this. Kaliis mentioned it after the days play but they said they weren't going to fix it mid match and players should just put up with it for now, oh those glorious English grounds...
You know, that sightscreen may have been poor, but it's not remotely unusual. There are plenty of poor-quality sightscreens which don't cover all the bowler's hand, at all sorts of grounds.

And what so many people constantly miss is that Kallis has had the same problem all career - sometimes, for no apparent reason, he simply fails to pick-up the really full ball. I've seen any number of instances of it - two of those which stand-out most came against Harmison in 2004/05 and Brett Lee in 2005/06.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
I said that in backs to wall situations or really difficult conditions against top bowlers that can make use of them he fails regularly
Like in the first Test of an Ashes series where the entire top order folded to McGrath?

Or in the crucial 5th Test, 2nd innings, where McGrath had once again made mincemeat of the top order?

Or against Shane Warne where Warne was reduced to bowling a negative line outside leg stump? Ok, how about Murali, where Pietersen unleashed the switch hit for the first time on the way to a 150+ score?

How about the pressure of playing against the country of his birth, in the country of his birth? Oh wait, Pietersen smacked 3 100s in 7 ODIs, including the fastest ever ODI ton by an English batsman.

Ah, but that's just in ODIs. Ok, in 4 Tests Pietersen hit 2 100s, a 90, and averaged 60 at a 70+ SR, in a series losing side!

You want a backs to the wall century? How about New Zealand reducing England to 4/3 in a series decider? Does that count as backs to the wall?
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
All excellent points. I'd forgotten about that innings in New Zealand!

Although I think he got out for 142 the first time he brought out the switch-hit - not that that's really here or there anyway
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You know, that sightscreen may have been poor, but it's not remotely unusual. There are plenty of poor-quality sightscreens which don't cover all the bowler's hand, at all sorts of grounds.

And what so many people constantly miss is that Kallis has had the same problem all career - sometimes, for no apparent reason, he simply fails to pick-up the really full ball. I've seen any number of instances of it - two of those which stand-out most came against Harmison in 2004/05 and Brett Lee in 2005/06.
Trescothick had the same problem against Lee if I recall :ph34r:
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
As I say though - there's many times since the West Indies tour of 2004 when he's been the same thing. It's just that, in addition to that, he's been a wicket-taker as well. His wicket-taking started at Galle in 2003/04.
Gotta to disagree with the starting of his, "come of age" as a fast bowler. Bridgetown 04 all the way B...
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
It was fantastic theatre, fantastic bowling...I'm not so sure, was made to look better by Kallis picking up the ball so late. It wasn't in the same league as the over he bowled to Ponting in 05.

The side played a part, but that spell to Kallis was almost just as good as his Punter no doubt. The gap in quality isn't a big as you are making it seem.

I didn't say Pietersen was crap against top teams, I said that in backs to wall situations or really difficult conditions against top bowlers that can make use of them he fails regularly (in fairness most batsmen do, but it stops Pietersen entering the Lara, Tendulkar or even Dravid categories). Against top teams in your run'o'the mill 1st innings (or even 2nd on a good surface) he'll probably hit a hundred 2 out of 3 times. I think that Mcgrath and Ambrose at their peaks would definitely have made him their bunnies though, their stock ball is his biggest weakness, Asif exploited it brilliantly when he came to England, short of length on off stump with a bit of bounce, Pietersen kept trying to get forward and muscle it through midwicket, kept getting out to him (4 times in a row IIRC)..
Wasn't the 1st test & 5th test @ the Oval, 100 in Pakistan (againts one of the best Pakistan bowling attacks since the the mid 90s, in tough alien conditions), 144 in India the other day.

The only problem with KP is that he is an entertainer. His adrenaline rush can get the better of him most of the time, i.e some of his dismissals vs SA last summer & vs PAK in that same hundred, 1st test vs WI in Jamaica. If he calms that down, he is only the Lara, Tendy, Ponting, Dravid level right awayyyy.

On Asif. KP only faced him one time...can't remember his dismissals too vividly. But the Aussie attack he faced in 06/07 plus the testing he got in his first test. Is enough proof to show once he puts his head down to bat, BIG KP can handle to class bowlers. So i disagree with the assertion that he would have failed againts the likes of Ambrose, McGrath...

That's why when comparing this England side to the one 10 years ago I'd take Thorpe ahead of Pietersen every time.
Nah. I'd want to have both though...
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Trescothick had the same problem against Lee if I recall :ph34r:
I only remember Trescothick failing to pick Lee up in a Test once - and that was a very short, very quick delivery at The WACA in the second-innings in 2002/03.

Obviously, he did damn well to pick-up a Beamer in a ODI in 2005. Had he failed to do so it'd have been an exceptionally nasty blow.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Gotta to disagree with the starting of his, "come of age" as a fast bowler. Bridgetown 04 all the way B...
As I say - to my mind his coming of age as a bowler happened in 2001/02. Before then he was a mediocre medium-fast bowler then an absolutely terrible quick who could barely bowl 5 overs a day.

Starting in 2001/02 he was a highly accurate, very quick bowler with heaps of stamina. And one who could move the ball off the seam and bowl reverse-swing.

However, only briefly - Galle '03/04 to 'Gabba '06/07 - did he ever really take wickets at a good rate. And even then no really, really big bags.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I only remember Trescothick failing to pick Lee up in a Test once - and that was a very short, very quick delivery at The WACA in the second-innings in 2002/03.

Obviously, he did damn well to pick-up a Beamer in a ODI in 2005. Had he failed to do so it'd have been an exceptionally nasty blow.
Yes...
 

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