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Harbhajan reignites racism storm

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
No, you admitted there was no law regarding Murali & that Emerson hadn't agreed to make any particular provisions. As you provided no kind of evidence to the contrary I assumed you'd conceded the point.
As I said - there's no law regarding anyone. You can't possibly incorporate the name of every bowler who is allowed to bowl into the Laws. There will presumably be something written somewhere about "X bowler has had his action cleared", however. You are surely aware that bowlers are routinely tested and found to be clean \ found to be transgressing and undergo remedial work?

Emerson was wrong to call Murali in that 1998\99 game. Horrifically wrong. I shall never, ever waver from that stance.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
As I said - there's no law regarding anyone. You can't possibly incorporate the name of every bowler who is allowed to bowl into the Laws. There will presumably be something written somewhere about "X bowler has had his action cleared", however. You are surely aware that bowlers are routinely tested and found to be clean \ found to be transgressing and undergo remedial work?

Emerson was wrong to call Murali in that 1998\99 game. Horrifically wrong. I shall never, ever waver from that stance.
Or rather there's a law regarding everyone & the law on chucking that pertained in 1999 made no mention of flexion tolerance limits or an assumption of innocence in perpetuity once tested. Emerson may have been misguided (and certainly an idiot), but he broke no laws.

&, again, it's your opinion that Emerson was wrong. I personally agree, but it doesn't justify Ranatunga's actions. You seem to routinely apply a rule of exception to protests in contravention of the laws of cricket where you think the complaints are justified, like when you recently defended the "originality" of Cronje putting a stump through the umpires' door & the fact that it "does no harm at all". I think maybe you should reconsider the wisdom of the old "two wrongs don't make a right" adage.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Or rather there's a law regarding everyone & the law on chucking that pertained in 1999 made no mention of flexion tolerance limits or an assumption of innocence in perpetuity once tested. Emerson may have been misguided (and certainly an idiot), but he broke no laws.
There was condemnation aplenty for his actions, because Murali's action had been cleared. No matter what law he'd been cleared under - he had been cleared. It was Emerson's job to accept this and do his duties according to it. Not to decide he knew better. I can assure you, had anyone (at the ACB or I$C$C) had the slightest inkling he was going to call him, they'd have specifically said "No! Don't!" He may not have flouted The Laws Of Cricket, but he certainly did flout an I$C$C directive. For that reason, he was in the wrong.
&, again, it's your opinion that Emerson was wrong. I personally agree, but it doesn't justify Ranatunga's actions. You seem to routinely apply a rule of exception to protests in contravention of the laws of cricket where you think the complaints are justified, like when you recently defended the "originality" of Cronje putting a stump through the umpires' door & the fact that it "does no harm at all". I think maybe you should reconsider the wisdom of the old "two wrongs don't make a right" adage.
Of course I do - I'm hardly going to suggest a protest where I find the protestants are in the wrong is justified am I? Nor that one where I find them in the right they should have shut-up and put-up?

It's simple - in certain times, protesting is not IMO a wrong.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
But AAP reported last night that India's chairman of selectors, Dilip Vengsarkar, had called for Symonds to be punished over the affair. "I should like to know whether he will be made to forfeit anything as well," he told the Indian news website timesnow.tv.
:laugh:


Dolt.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Here goes:

No dont think so...if so sreesanth and him should have stopeed it long time ago....wait for the one day series to start you will see sreesanht back to the old ways even though he has been publically asked to clam down by the borad..its all just to show to th emedia and public..internaly i thnk lot of peopl in the team dont mind them having a go at the opposition ...and particulary aganist aussies
Sreesanth will get pumped over here in the ODIs. Frankly, he's nowhere near the bowler he's been made out to be imo, and India were very well served by his absence in the test series.
Given the way the rules are now, I have no drama with people having words with eachother either, but it seems we both accept that racism is unacceptable.
Still don't think the Aussies should have complained, and on that evidence he deserved to get off:)
On the evidence I agree with you, but there was a process, and the process was hijacked by the BCCI sitting a plane on the tarmac at Adelaide airport, and bringng their ODI players from Melbourne to Adelaide, just before the hearing.
Can't agree with you mate re. not reporting it. As a captain, if one of your players says he has been racially vilified, I think you do the game a great disservice unless you report it.
Like I have said, to the Indian team & BCCI the very idea that non-coloured teams get to define racism, is unacceptable. The subcontinent teams have always thaught that what the foul language that the Aussie team uses on the pitch is far worse than anything harbhajan has been accused of saying. So as Gavaskar said, to millions of Indians what Bhajji did is OK.

Having said that Bhajji will only be supported if he performs, if not he will be dropped.
Top three most dire posts since I joined CW. Interesting take that only people of a certain colour may decide what constitutes racial prejudice. Kind of sounds like prejudice to me.
As for the language used by the Aussies, you're right - a lot of what they say is rubbish and it can also be foul mouthed and insensitive to the culture of the Indians - ie. "bastard". Which may well explain why Ponting went to Hogg ont he field and told him not to say it, as it was offensive to the Indian players.
See mate, despite your view that only coloured players can decide what's racist and what isn't, tolerance really needs to be a two-way street.
A whitewash or a fudge? I can't quite decide. Probably the latter, given Harbhajan's conviction of the lesser offence. Are we to infer that "monkey" is considered an abusive but not racist term from here on in?

CA's interjection on Harbhajan's behalf suggests the scrathching of backs, greasing of palms & twisting of nobs behind closed doors to me.
Sorry Brummers, I suspect the former, given what's come out about the tour basically being placed at risk.

Where is the evidence that he did call Symonds a monkey in Sydney??
And like I said previously the opinion on whether the term monkey is racial is debatable as coloured players like Michael Holding dont think it is.
What a shame then that Harbhajan wasn't around to call Holding that when he played. Or Ambrose. or Marshall. Would not have had the guts to do it, and if a miracle happened and he did, there would need to be an ambulance waiting every time he batted. As I posted on this thread yesterday, go and have a look at "An Aussie Goes Bolly" and tell me that the crowd in Mumbai aren't yelling Monkey at Symonds in a racist, derogatory manner. It's sickening. And it's relevant, because it's the very background to this whole thing blowing up in Sydney.

The argument here is not on whether Indians are racist, its on whether the word monkey is a racial slur or not
The word monkey being a racial slur is highly debatable. By adding stupid words like monkey in the list of racial terms you trivialize the really ugly concept of racialism.
Bollocks. Curious he chose the only black player in the side to direct it at, isn't it?

There are pretty strong secondary and circumstantial evidence that ALIENS exist but I would not bet my life on it.
If that is good enough for you......so be it. But you can't slander someone based on circumstantial and secondary evidence.
He hasn't been slandered mate. They approached him straight up with what they heard. I said this before as well, but here goes. Even if my client has a rubbish story, they're better sticking to it than changing it 3 times like Harbhajan has. We had "it was all friendly (Tendulkar at post-match conference on day it happened in Sydney), to "nothing was said" (lead up to 1st hearing) to "something was said but it wasn't what the Aussies heard".
He has been charged with abuse and not racist abuse.
It has been proved he said " maa ki " not monkey by a neutral judge.
Australians have called indians all sort of things in the past and they have not reacted or responded .But when an indian responded it was the aussies who cried wolf.If you cannot take it you have lost the right to give it too.
Wrong on several counts mate. The charge was amended and downgraded by agreement - the judge never had to consider whether he used a racist remark at the appeal. As for the highlighted section, seriously, if every time a decision goes against the BCCI they take their bat and ball and go home, they will never have any credibility, and frankly their team, which has underachieved for more than half a century, will always find excuses for being beaten instead of becoming the best side in the world.

There are laws in india about family abuse too.
So when the aussies come here they should leave the word "bastard" out of their dictionary and symonds in a way could be charged for insulting our monkey god if he thinks "monkey is abusive.
It is better if you leave the criminal laws out of sport and let it be aestheic.
Congrats, you've usurped the earlier dire post and have taken the gold.

I call my sister "bandar" or " monkey" affectionately it is neither abuse nor racism.
Different phrases have different meanings and the crux of the matter on hand is How we determine what is racist or what is not.
Precisely. You want other countries to be senitive to the use of the word bastard with regards to Indian players, yet it's ok for the Indians to use a term which is offensive to others because, well it's not really considered a racist term where they come from? Cevno, thy name is inconsistency!

Bunch of Animals is NOT racist.
Bunch of Monkeys will not be racist either
Silver medal in direst post stakes. Well done.

That's fine, but having been on here for both controversies and following them closely, it seems like people (on the whole, not accusing anyone specifically) pick and choose arguments to support their side and the current side of the fence they find themselves on.

A guy like Silentstriker, I remember, said over there this is unacceptable by Gibbs and he's said the same thing here - that I greatly respect, it shows he has a strong opinion against this form of racism and will not bend his opinion just because he finds himself on the opposite side of the fence of an argument.
SS has always been an enormously consistent poster on the issue of racism and, frankly, it's to his enormous credit.
But if you consider stupidity in every case then most of murder cases will be reduced to "causing death due to neglicence or undeliberate action" based on stupidity of people and not conspiracy to kill.
No. Ridiculous parallel to draw, but anyway - most murders are spontaneous actions carried out in fits of rage, drunkeness or when affected by some other substance. Most people regret enormously what they've done and frankly can't believe they've done it. Doesn't mean they aren't guilty of the crime. You watch too much TV mate - not every unlawful homocide is the work of a criminal mastermind.

Ridiculous. They downgraded the charge because the CA caved into the BCCI's threat of boycott. My lack of respect for the BCCI has reached a new high.
And knowing how you feel about them, that's saying something.

Sensationalist biased journalism by a newspaper.Hardly surprising.
Haven't read any of Gavaskar's or Sidhu's work on this issue mate?
I have been wondering though since the beginning of this saga, if India pulled out, would CA have grounds to claim damages against the BCCI for lost revenue? If a contract was signed, you'd surely think so.
Yes, they would. Of course, if an international court awarded damages agaisnt the BCCI India would presumably say that if the decision isn't overturned, they would withdraw from the UN :)

Well, if it's objective analysis you're after, you should go read the Daily Telegraph.... :ph34r:
:laugh:
Murali called, Ranatunga led walkoff, prolonged sledging of all and sundry by SL, two examples of obstructing field by SL batsmen - they totally lost the plot

Ranatunga was great at manipulating certain sections of media with "poor little SL" line but under his "control", some members of his team were absolute shockers.

Like Tony Greig and Ian Chappell, his new holier than thou elder statesman bs is so hypocritical its not funny
Not really, they had every right to walk off IMO and if no-one else was going to take that idiot Emerson to task, good on Ranatunga for doing so.
Alec Stewart's words to Ranatunga in that match when the latter came out to bat were gold and he deserved enormous kudos for them. Was something like "Your behaviour today, for the captain of an international cricket team, was nothing short of disgraceful". Well said the Gaffer.

I'm a bit surprised at all the outrage.

Is the thought process that evidence was covered up? How are people so sure? It seems that people are so shocked at such an outcome, when realistically, it was about 50/50 to go this way. That's what happens in he said/she said cases with little hard evidence. It seems people are so offended that the Aussies weren't given the benefit of the doubt all the way through as they were in the start (which ironically, many people felt was in error to take their word over another). I don't think it's fair to base your justice system on Harbajhan looks like he's the type to do it or he probably did it before so he must have done it again.

Maybe I'm being naive here, but it looks like either side would be crying with any decision that was made. I just don't see how the Aussies (and the media) can be crying more than the Indians with the lack of a smoking gun.
It's not the outcome which was achieved, because I think most people were pretty damn surprised when Proctor's decision came down. It's more the fact that the appeal process, which the BCCI along with everyone else signed up to, has been hijacked because of money and the wonderful spirit of "We'll take our bat and ball and go home if it doesn't go our way". Had the appeal gone ahead and the judge said there wasnt enough evidence so he's acquitted, then I don't think anyone would have had a problem with it.
 
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archie mac

International Coach
On the evidence I agree with you, but there was a process, and the process was hijacked by the BCCI sitting a plane on the tarmac at Adelaide airport, and bringng their ODI players from Melbourne to Adelaide, just before the hearing.
Can't agree with you mate re. not reporting it. As a captain, if one of your players says he has been racially vilified, I think you do the game a great disservice unless you report it.

.
Just think they wind someone up he responds and then they cry foul. As I have said racist comments do not upset me as much as saying something about my kids for example.

Nothing personal would be the way I would like it. Things such as 'He has more blocks then a lego set" that is okay but " his mother is a slut" that is far worse then calling an Aussie a white C. Just my opinion:)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Here goes:


Sreesanth will get pumped over here in the ODIs. Frankly, he's nowhere near the bowler he's been made out to be imo, and India were very well served by his absence in the test series.
Given the way the rules are now, I have no drama with people having words with eachother either, but it seems we both accept that racism is unacceptable.

On the evidence I agree with you, but there was a process, and the process was hijacked by the BCCI sitting a plane on the tarmac at Adelaide airport, and bringng their ODI players from Melbourne to Adelaide, just before the hearing.
Can't agree with you mate re. not reporting it. As a captain, if one of your players says he has been racially vilified, I think you do the game a great disservice unless you report it.

Top three most dire posts since I joined CW. Interesting take that only people of a certain colour may decide what constitutes racial prejudice. Kind of sounds like prejudice to me.
As for the language used by the Aussies, you're right - a lot of what they say is rubbish and it can also be foul mouthed and insensitive to the culture of the Indians - ie. "bastard". Which may well explain why Ponting went to Hogg ont he field and told him not to say it, as it was offensive to the Indian players.
See mate, despite your view that only coloured players can decide what's racist and what isn't, tolerance really needs to be a two-way street.

Sorry Brummers, I suspect the former, given what's come out about the tour basically being placed at risk.


What a shame then that Harbhajan wasn't around to call Holding that when he played. Or Ambrose. or Marshall. Would not have had the guts to do it, and if a miracle happened and he did, there would need to be an ambulance waiting every time he batted. As I posted on this thread yesterday, go and have a look at "An Aussie Goes Bolly" and tell me that the crowd in Mumbai aren't yelling Monkey at Symonds in a racist, derogatory manner. It's sickening. And it's relevant, because it's the very background to this whole thing blowing up in Sydney.


Bollocks. Curious he chose the only black player in the side to direct it at, isn't it?


He hasn't been slandered mate. They approached him straight up with what they heard. I said this before as well, but here goes. Even if my client has a rubbish story, they're better sticking to it than changing it 3 times like Harbhajan has. We had "it was all friendly (Tendulkar at post-match conference on day it happened in Sydney), to "nothing was said" (lead up to 1st hearing) to "something was said but it wasn't what the Aussies heard".

Wrong on several counts mate. The charge was amended and downgraded by agreement - the judge never had to consider whether he used a racist remark at the appeal. As for the highlighted section, seriously, if every time a decision goes against the BCCI they take their bat and ball and go home, they will never have any credibility, and frankly their team, which has underachieved for more than half a century, will always find excuses for being beaten instead of becoming the best side in the world.


Congrats, you've usurped the earlier dire post and have taken the gold.

Precisely. You want other countries to be senitive to the use of the word bastard with regards to Indian players, yet it's ok for the Indians to use a term which is offensive to others because, well it's not really considered a racist term where they come from? Cevno, thy name is inconsistency!


Silver medal in direst post stakes. Well done.


SS has always been an enormously consistent poster on the issue of racism and, frankly, it's to his enormous credit.

No. Ridiculous parallel to draw, but anyway - most murders are spontaneous actions carried out in fits of rage, drunkeness or when affected by some other substance. Most people regret enormously what they've done and frankly can't believe they've done it. Doesn't mean they aren't guilty of the crime. You watch too much TV mate - not every unlawful homocide is the work of a criminal mastermind.


And knowing how you feel about them, that's saying something.


Haven't read any of Gavaskar's or Sidhu's work on this issue mate?

Yes, they would. Of course, if an international court awarded damages agaisnt the BCCI India would presumably say that if the decision isn't overturned, they would withdraw from the UN :)


:laugh:



It's not the outcome which was achieved, because I think most people were pretty damn surprised when Proctor's decision came down. It's more the fact that the appeal process, which the BCCI along with everyone else signed up to, has been hijacked because of money and the wonderful spirit of "We'll take our bat and ball and go home if it doesn't go our way". Had the appeal gone ahead and the judge said there wasnt enough evidence so he's acquitted, then I don't think anyone would have had a problem with it.
:blink:
:blink:
:blink:
:blink:
Longest post for quite a while.
Alec Stewart's words to Ranatunga in that match when the latter came out to bat were gold and he deserved enormous kudos for them. Was something like "Your behaviour today, for the captain of an international cricket team, was nothing short of disgraceful". Well said the Gaffer.
I was rather surprised at Stewart after that TBH, most unlike him to be so strenuously critical.
 

sirdj

State Vice-Captain
I'd be quite happy for any borderline comments to have to be avoided by all involved, if it meant people could go about their job without being racially abused. So long as 'borderline' isn't taken to ridiculous lengths - and I know that's what you're arguing would be the problem. But I think we can stand to move the "border" a fair bit further towards prescriptive than it currently is.
I disagree about the 'moving the border business'. This world is going crazy, in this age of political correctness laws regarding ***ual harassment have now become so warped that women can sue for being harassed at the drop of the hat, while actual cases should be punished you have to agree the the laws are really warped. The same thing about race politics......it does not matter anymore whether a person is job-fit or not, the color of his skin is more important....people are promoted so that politicians may appear more pro-black or pro-latin american. This is crazy. While in Australia this mat not be so yet, but we are getting there.
So if anything you have to maintain a level head when issues such as the Harbhajan case comes up, and definitely not move any borders.
What are you going to do if Sreeshanth in an exchange with Symonds in the upcoming ODI series calls him a 'Big Donkey' or the Indian fans chant Donkey-Donkey & wear donkey masks. We know what is being insinuated, but are we to add Donkey in the list of slurs too??
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Well, a lot's happened in the last day or so and I was at a dinner last night and coldn't post. Apologies for the length of that.

I'd like people's comments on Tendulkar's role in this. I think his credibility has been impinged.

On the day of the flair up he goes to the conference and says "It was all about friendship" - ok, he's trying to hose it down.

Then HBS gets charged, and he's on the phone to the BCCI saying they should defend him to the hilt, and there's all this press from the Indian camp about Sachin saying HBS didn't say it, and how adamant he was that nothing racist was said, and he should be believed coz he's a legend.


Proctor's verdict gets handed down, and Effigies R Us go into over drive, one of the reasons being that Tendulkar's word should have been taken over everyone else's (probably the least rational argument in this whole thing).

Eventually, it transpires that he got to the hearing and said "Oh, by the way, I was out of ear shot and couldn't hear a thing" which is completely different to what he'd been saying all along!!!!

Give me a break. Otto Von Sachin. Brinkmanship at its best. Truthfulness in abeyance.

He's a great batsman. That's all I"m saying.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I disagree about the 'moving the border business'. This world is going crazy, in this age of political correctness laws regarding ***ual harassment have now become so warped that women can sue for being harassed at the drop of the hat, while actual cases should be punished you have to agree the the laws are really warped. The same thing about race politics......it does not matter anymore whether a person is job-fit or not, the color of his skin is more important....people are promoted so that politicians may appear more pro-black or pro-latin american. This is crazy. While in Australia this mat not be so yet, but we are getting there.
So if anything you have to maintain a level head when issues such as the Harbhajan case comes up, and definitely not move any borders.
What are you going to do if Sreeshanth in an exchange with Symonds in the upcoming ODI series calls him a 'Big Donkey' or the Indian fans chant Donkey-Donkey & wear donkey masks. We know what is being insinuated, but are we to add Donkey in the list of slurs too??
Well, I wish more people called me donkey, tbh.
 

sirdj

State Vice-Captain
Here goes:
Top three most dire posts since I joined CW. Interesting take that only people of a certain colour may decide what constitutes racial prejudice. Kind of sounds like prejudice to me.
As for the language used by the Aussies, you're right - a lot of what they say is rubbish and it can also be foul mouthed and insensitive to the culture of the Indians - ie. "bastard". Which may well explain why Ponting went to Hogg ont he field and told him not to say it, as it was offensive to the Indian players.
See mate, despite your view that only coloured players can decide what's racist and what isn't, tolerance really needs to be a two-way street.
If you read all my posts you would have learned that my standing on the issue is that there is no place for ANY sledging in cricket or any sport for that matter as its unsporting & a very bad example for the kids.
What is being debated by me is
1. Whether there was sufficient evidence( not sufficient IMO)
2. Whether the alleged slur(monkey) is racial in nature.
3. Who gets to decide what is racial??

99% of racial abuse is unidirectional(non-coloured towards coloured), it would be extremely unethical if the non-coloured definition of racism & what is considered racist be made the law and the coloured opinion ignored.

Burgey said:
What a shame then that Harbhajan wasn't around to call Holding that when he played. Or Ambrose. or Marshall. Would not have had the guts to do it, and if a miracle happened and he did, there would need to be an ambulance waiting every time he batted. As I posted on this thread yesterday, go and have a look at "An Aussie Goes Bolly" and tell me that the crowd in Mumbai aren't yelling Monkey at Symonds in a racist, derogatory manner. It's sickening. And it's relevant, because it's the very background to this whole thing blowing up in Sydney.
Well Holding was is not playing around anymore is he?? And Symonds is as large if not larger than Holding isn't he? So its not a question about Harbahjan's guts it the question of Holding's opinion as another coloured man.
I was in India when Monkeygate happened & it was stupid & deplorable. But we are not talking about whether Indians are racist or not. We are talking about whether the word monkey is racist or not.

Burgey said:
Bollocks. Curious he chose the only black player in the side to direct it at, isn't it?
He spoke back to the only player sledging him at the moment.

Burgey said:
He hasn't been slandered mate. They approached him straight up with what they heard. I said this before as well, but here goes. Even if my client has a rubbish story, they're better sticking to it than changing it 3 times like Harbhajan has. We had "it was all friendly (Tendulkar at post-match conference on day it happened in Sydney), to "nothing was said" (lead up to 1st hearing) to "something was said but it wasn't what the Aussies heard".
I don't know about you, but all three statements are denials of the alleged slur. Tendulkar is not going to repeat what was said on the pitch in a press conference, he will try to play down the situation as the Indians were still trying to prevent the issue escalating to a diplomatic breach.

Burgey said:
Silver medal in direst post stakes. Well done.
Your dishing out medals willy-nilly does not constitute an argument. If you feel what I say is wrong then prove it with words. The day words like animal & monkey become racial slurs people like you will patrol schools & arrest every kid in kindergarten.
 

sirdj

State Vice-Captain
Then HBS gets charged, and he's on the phone to the BCCI saying they should defend him to the hilt, and there's all this press from the Indian camp about Sachin saying HBS didn't say it, and how adamant he was that nothing racist was said, and he should be believed coz he's a legend.
According to the local press in India Sachin oficially denied speaking to the BCCI about withdrawl of tour, denied sending any alleged SMSs.
 

Dusty Lee

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Kumble said last night that cricket is the winner, he could not be more wrong, the only winner here is money and of coarse Harbhajan. This is a great injustice.

After Harbhajan and the crowd in Mumbai disgraced themselves on Australia's tour of India, Symonds spoke to Harbhajan and told him it wasn't acceptable and Harbhajan said he wouldn't say it again. Then three Australian cricketers heard Harbhajan call Symonds a monkey. So it is no longer Symonds word against Harbhajan's, there are witnesses. Why is this not acceptable in court. Are the ICC calling the Australians liars?

They have said that he abused Symonds but it wasn't racial, then what was it? For mine if calling Symonds a monkey in this case wasn't racial then it wasn't abuse and he should have been cleared. Yet he pleaded guilty to abuse, so he did say something. Smells of India holding the ICC to ransom. In every other sport officials are cracking down on racism yet they soft soap this.

Darren Lehman got charged and convicted of racism and got supsended for 5 matches and he copped it on the chin and did the time, perhaps the Indians could learn from this. Sure they say Aussies did it in the past so they should let this one slide, each case should be treated on its merrits. If there were complaints made back then then they should have been delt with, I am not condoning what other Australians might have said in the past, two wrongs don't make a right.

If they wish to hold the cricket world to ransom with threats of going home, then I say go home and don't come back. But lets see justice done.

After the way the ICC buckled to the Indians over the umpires and now this,makes you wonder just what the Indians can get away with if they wave there checkbook around. And Mr Kumble, if you think this makes cricket the winner you are so wrong.
 

sirdj

State Vice-Captain
Kumble said last night that cricket is the winner, he could not be more wrong, the only winner here is money and of coarse Harbhajan. This is a great injustice.

After Harbhajan and the crowd in Mumbai disgraced themselves on Australia's tour of India, Symonds spoke to Harbhajan and told him it wasn't acceptable and Harbhajan said he wouldn't say it again. Then three Australian cricketers heard Harbhajan call Symonds a monkey. So it is no longer Symonds word against Harbhajan's, there are witnesses. Why is this not acceptable in court. Are the ICC calling the Australians liars?

They have said that he abused Symonds but it wasn't racial, then what was it? For mine if calling Symonds a monkey in this case wasn't racial then it wasn't abuse and he should have been cleared. Yet he pleaded guilty to abuse, so he did say something. Smells of India holding the ICC to ransom. In every other sport officials are cracking down on racism yet they soft soap this.

Darren Lehman got charged and convicted of racism and got supsended for 5 matches and he copped it on the chin and did the time, perhaps the Indians could learn from this. Sure they say Aussies did it in the past so they should let this one slide, each case should be treated on its merrits. If there were complaints made back then then they should have been delt with, I am not condoning what other Australians might have said in the past, two wrongs don't make a right.

If they wish to hold the cricket world to ransom with threats of going home, then I say go home and don't come back. But lets see justice done.

After the way the ICC buckled to the Indians over the umpires and now this,makes you wonder just what the Indians can get away with if they wave there checkbook around. And Mr Kumble, if you think this makes cricket the winner you are so wrong.
My dear friend, a course in basic law will do you good.:dry:
 

burr

State Vice-Captain
The BCCI makes me sick. Having a plane on stand-by - pure blackmail. They're ruining the game and the ICC (and now, apparently, CA) is letting them. Disgraceful.
 

Davey

School Boy/Girl Captain
It was not proven, end of story.

But i have to say threatening to pull out of the tour, and the chartered plane nonsense is just insane.. if anything why not reprimand the management and the board for even suggesting doing that??

Also i cant believe this was Breaking News and the number one story on some channels, i know its controversial and all but arent there more important things in the world?
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
the reduced charge crap against harb makes me think that he did say it and this decision was completely due to bcci pressure...not a good feeling as an indian fan...:dry:
 

Burgey

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According to the local press in India Sachin oficially denied speaking to the BCCI about withdrawl of tour, denied sending any alleged SMSs.
What was that earlier post about the SMH being biased and hysterical in its reporting? If tendulkar was out of ear shot, and said he was all along, why was he even there to give evidence?
If you read all my posts you would have learned that my standing on the issue is that there is no place for ANY sledging in cricket or any sport for that matter as its unsporting & a very bad example for the kids.
What is being debated by me is
1. Whether there was sufficient evidence( not sufficient IMO)
2. Whether the alleged slur(monkey) is racial in nature.
3. Who gets to decide what is racial??

99% of racial abuse is unidirectional(non-coloured towards coloured), it would be extremely unethical if the non-coloured definition of racism & what is considered racist be made the law and the coloured opinion ignored.

Well Holding was is not playing around anymore is he?? And Symonds is as large if not larger than Holding isn't he? So its not a question about Harbahjan's guts it the question of Holding's opinion as another coloured man.I was in India when Monkeygate happened & it was stupid & deplorable. But we are not talking about whether Indians are racist or not. We are talking about whether the word monkey is racist or not.


He spoke back to the only player sledging him at the moment.


I don't know about you, but all three statements are denials of the alleged slur. Tendulkar is not going to repeat what was said on the pitch in a press conference, he will try to play down the situation as the Indians were still trying to prevent the issue escalating to a diplomatic breach.


The day words like animal & monkey become racial slurs people like you will patrol schools & arrest every kid in kindergarten.
Well, wouldn't we all like to think that people in their 20s and 30s might have a greater understanding than 5 year olds in play grounds? It's about as relevant as comparing this disciplinary hearing to a murder trial.

Your comments re. only coloured people's opinions counting as to what's racist is absolutely ridiculous. Let's suppose for a moment though that you are right. Seen any photos of Andrew Symonds lately? He's a black guy, and he found it offensive. Walk down a street in North America and call a black guy a monkey, and see how far you get. Call the same guy a monkey after he's already told you it's offensive to him and you won't even get a little way.

The point isn't the verdict which was reached mate, it's how it was reached in circumstances where the BCCI held the process (which they agreed to set up) to ransom. It was appalling. If the appeal was heard and the infantile Singh was cleared because there wasn't enough evidence, then fine. But that's not what happened. A deal was struck in circumstances where the BCCI held the ICC, CA and the game in general to ransom. Disgraceful.

How can Indian supporters come on here and say Monkey's not a big deal so let it ride, then turn around and expect others to not use a word like bastard because it's offensive in their culture? It just seems very odd frankly.
 
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sirdj

State Vice-Captain
What was that earlier post about the SMH being biased and hysterical in its reporting? If tendulkar was out of ear shot, and said he was all along, why was he even there to give evidence?
For the same reason that Ponting & Hayden were there to give evidence.

Burgey; said:
Well, wouldn't we all like to think that people in their 20s and 30s might have a greater understanding than 5 year olds in play grounds? It's about as relevant as comparing this disciplinary hearing to a murder trial.
It seems that both the Aussies & the Indians behaved worse than 5 year olds in Sydney. The trouble with adding monkey to a list of racist slurs is once a word is deemed racist, then its racist irrespective of who used it or in what context it was used a 5 year old or Harbhajan.
Burgey; said:
Your comments re. only coloured people's opinions counting as to what's racist is absolutely ridiculous. Let's suppose for a moment though that you are right. Seen any photos of Andrew Symonds lately? He's a black guy, and he found it offensive. Walk down a street in North America and call a black guy a monkey, and see how far you get. Call the same guy a monkey after he's already told you it's offensive to him and you won't even get a little way.
Its your view which is ridiculous AND you STILL have not pointed out why a non-coloured opinion on racism is more valid than a coloured opinion.
Instead you give all the various scenarios of how someone will be beaten up. Anyways would you be beaten any less if you called him a donkey?? Stop pulling out Streets in America and Black guys out of hats and respond to the original question.

Burgey; said:
The point isn't the verdict which was reached mate, it's how it was reached in circumstances where the BCCI held the process (which they agreed to set up) to ransom. It was appalling. If the appeal was heard and the infantile Singh was cleared because there wasn't enough evidence, then fine. But that's not what happened. A deal was struck in circumstances where the BCCI held the ICC, CA and the game in general to ransom. Disgraceful.
I am discussing the word 'monkey'. I am not here to talk about the BCCI and their arm-twisting. The BCCI is more of a political organisation than a governing body, the CEO and other twits are all Politicians and have to pander to the effigy burning electorate.

Burgey; said:
How can Indian supporters come on here and say Monkey's not a big deal so let it ride, then turn around and expect others to not use a word like bastard because it's offensive in their culture? It just seems very odd frankly.
Cant say about what Indian supporters are claiming, But my stand on the issue is that legally Harbhajan can't be punished due to lack of evidence & monkey is not a racial term as it trivializes what is deemed as a racist slur.
 
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