Good/Great bowlers that owned good/great batsman...

[honestbharani]

And he was also dropped at least three times in that series... Lara had some bad luck and some good in 2005/06 - for once, it was roughly equal in amount.

well... that would probably even out the no. of great catches he had to suffer... Doesn't even come close to the stupid decisions he was getting against him..


I am yet to see a series with more bad luck for a single batsman than Lara in that series. Sachin in England 2007 comes close, but that is about it...


And juz wondering, I don't recall him being dropped in the 200+ score.. When else was he actually dropped?

 

[GIMH]

well... that would probably even out the no. of great catches he had to suffer... Doesn't even come close to the stupid decisions he was getting against him..


I am yet to see a series with more bad luck for a single batsman than Lara in that series. Sachin in England 2007 comes close, but that is about it...


And juz wondering, I don't recall him being dropped in the 200+ score.. When else was he actually dropped?

Damien Martyn in the 05 Ashes and Andrew Strauss in some series in 06-07, opponents and scoreline in the latter escape me

 

[Richard]

well... that would probably even out the no. of great catches he had to suffer... Doesn't even come close to the stupid decisions he was getting against him..


I am yet to see a series with more bad luck for a single batsman than Lara in that series. Sachin in England 2007 comes close, but that is about it...


And juz wondering, I don't recall him being dropped in the 200+ score.. When else was he actually dropped?

Lara in the mid-2000s (2004, 2005 and 2006) had a fair few catches dropped off him by many teams. I'd class him as more fortunate than most in that short period; he did get a few bad Umpiring decisions but they were outnumbered by let-offs from missed chances.

BTW, a catch is a catch - it's out. Freakish catches are extreme rarities. A dropped catch and a bad out decision are the polar-opposite and cancel each other out.

I can't actually recall for certain a drop during the double-century he made at Adelaide in 2005/06, but something's suggesting to me he might've had a let-off fairly early.

 

[Richard]

Damien Martyn in the 05 Ashes and Andrew Strauss in some series in 06-07, opponents and scoreline in the latter escape me

Martyn and Strauss from memory only got 3 each, may even have just been 2 in the former. Granted, though, 3 bad decisions in ~10 innings' is extreme misfortune. IIRR, Tendulkar got 1, maybe 2 at best, bad decisions in the 2007 Test series in England - it's just that 1 was so awful it stands-out like a thumb and some people over-emphasise it.

 

[GIMH]

A not-out is a not-out, whichever way you look at it. A batsman who's given caught when he's missed the ball by a foot isn't any unluckier than the one who missed it by a millimetre if they are both given out, it's just that the umpire in the former scenario is indefensible.

 

[Richard]

... so?

 

[GIMH]

I was continuing your point about Tendulkar's being over-emphasised

 

[BoyBrumby]

A not-out is a not-out, whichever way you look at it. A batsman who's given caught when he's missed the ball by a foot isn't any unluckier than the one who missed it by a millimetre if they are both given out, it's just that the umpire in the former scenario is indefensible.

Don't want to take the thread too far off topic, but not sure I agree with that. There's not outs and not outs in the same way as there are outs and outs. Rubel Hossain had Prior stone dead in the first innings and just before the close Broad should've got the decision when Mushfiqur was offering no shot. Both technically incorrect decisions, but Hossain was unluckier IMHO; one could just about make a case for reasonable doubt with Broad's rejected appeal.

Same principle with incorrect outs for me; if a bloke swings and misses by six inches I'd say he's been harder done than a batsman where the ball squeezes up off the pad with scarcely any air between bat and cherry, but no nick.

 

[GIMH]

I guess it depends what you define as luck - I've got my story and I'm sticking to it

 

[The Sean]

Well, I'd never heard that story before, so glad you made the effort, mate, pissing in the wind as it may well be.

& it's an important distinction, I think. Looking at cricinfo's list, Bedser (sorry to pick on Alec, but he's the obvious example) got Neil Harvey 12 times in 13 tests which sounds a more thorough domination than (say) Ambrose's of Hick (11 times in 17 tests), but Harvey averaged over 50 in those matches and Graeme under 17.

That's really interesting about Harvey there - notwithstanding the runs Harvey scored, I'd not realised Bedser had gotten him out that often.

 

[vcs]

I remember Sachin getting only one bad decision in the 2007 England Test series when he was given LBW to Collingwood on 91. It was a poor decision but there was way too much furore over it because it was well, Sachin. Taufel should never have been put in a position where he was forced to apologise.

I seem to recall he got more bad decisions on the '99-'00 tour of Australia but I'm not sure. There was that infamous "shoulder-before-wicket" incident, I think. Speaking of getting out to great catches, Sachin got out to some ridiculous catches on the '97 SA tour. There were atleast 4 brilliant catches that I can think of.

 

[GIMH]

Hasn't it been established that the shoulder before wicket decision was correct?

 

[Migara]

Lara in the mid-2000s (2004, 2005 and 2006) had a fair few catches dropped off him by many teams. I'd class him as more fortunate than most in that short period; he did get a few bad Umpiring decisions but they were outnumbered by let-offs from missed chances

In that series Lara score 680 runs in SL he has nearly 15 lbw shouts from Vaas. Nearly all of them were mighty close, and 5 - 6 were not heading anywhere but the stumps. That series was one of the worst Vaas had in umpiring, yet bagged 26 wickets in the series.

In that whole series and few later ones, Gayle was owned by Vaas

 

[Faisal1985]

Thinking about Inzi...

Didn't Anil Kumble pretty much owned him...?? at least in test cricket.

 

[andyc]

Hasn't it been established that the shoulder before wicket decision was correct?

YouTube - Sachin LBW controversy

Yep, have always thought it looked out. Ball was on the way down if anything IMO.

 

[Furball]

In that series Lara score 680 runs in SL he has nearly 15 lbw shouts from Vaas. Nearly all of them were mighty close, and 5 - 6 were not heading anywhere but the stumps. That series was one of the worst Vaas had in umpiring, yet bagged 26 wickets in the series.

In that whole series and few later ones, Gayle was owned by Vaas

Vaas had a ridiculous hold over Stephen Fleming late in his career didn't he?

 

[honestbharani]

In that series Lara score 680 runs in SL he has nearly 15 lbw shouts from Vaas. Nearly all of them were mighty close, and 5 - 6 were not heading anywhere but the stumps. That series was one of the worst Vaas had in umpiring, yet bagged 26 wickets in the series.

In that whole series and few later ones, Gayle was owned by Vaas

hmmm.. watched the series.. don't recall even one that actually stands out... And I don't think much was reported in the match reports either...

 

[Richard]

I was continuing your point about Tendulkar's being over-emphasised

I see. Sounded more like you were suggesting I said otherwise TBH, never mind.

 

[Richard]

I remember Sachin getting only one bad decision in the 2007 England Test series when he was given LBW to Collingwood on 91. It was a poor decision but there was way too much furore over it because it was well, Sachin. Taufel should never have been put in a position where he was forced to apologise.

The furore was also due to the fact that it was the sort of decision that should just never be being made by a half-decent Umpire, never mind one of the best there's ever been. It beggared belief England even appealed, never mind that Taufel gave it. It'd have struggled to hit two more stumps outside the off, never mind one.

Also, perhaps, some people forget the distinction between Tests and ODIs. Tendulkar got at least a couple of bad out decisions in the ODIs but of course the Test series is the Test series and the ODI series is the ODI series.

 

[Richard]

Don't want to take the thread too far off topic, but not sure I agree with that. There's not outs and not outs in the same way as there are outs and outs. Rubel Hossain had Prior stone dead in the first innings and just before the close Broad should've got the decision when Mushfiqur was offering no shot. Both technically incorrect decisions, but Hossain was unluckier IMHO; one could just about make a case for reasonable doubt with Broad's rejected appeal.

Same principle with incorrect outs for me; if a bloke swings and misses by six inches I'd say he's been harder done than a batsman where the ball squeezes up off the pad with scarcely any air between bat and cherry, but no nick.

There's a slice of bigger luck, and a bigger slice of luck. A bad out \ not-out and a dropped catch \ missed stumping is a slice of the same size luck regardless of whether it's an obvious mistake \ dolly dropped or a marginal error \ tricky chance missed. Regardless of whether it should have been out every time or whether it should merely have been out more often than not, a let-off is a let-off and a saw-off is a saw-off.

Obviously, though, some let-offs and saw-offs are harder and less hard on the batsman \ bowler in question.