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England Squad Form

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Disagree that he had little else, the 90 you alluded to was important. Obviously the game was pretty much dead by then (although I was still desperately holding out for a draw, obv), but it was important that someone got runs on the board. The benefit of getting those runs was seen in the next Test - the other person who scored in Brisbane was Pietersen, who also went on to score big next time round. Just because a game appears to be dead doesn't necessarily mean a performance should be devalued, and they'd have been panned if they'd just rolled over without a fight.
The point is, it was an innings that was never going to have a bearing on the outcome of the game. The series, well, maybe, yes (turned-out no, obviously) and clearly runs > no runs. Under all circumstances. No runs in dead or live circumstances < runs in dead circumstances and no runs in live.

Collingwood in Australia in 2006/07 had one sensational Test and four poor ones.
 

rivera213

U19 Vice-Captain
Shudder at the idea of Hildreth.
Why?

It's true he has yet to come close to his potential but he may just need a better challenge than county cricket to enable him to flourish.

There isn't anything wrong with his batting in terms of technique, he must just be bored playing county cricket. It happens.
 

Burgey

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Well didn't they get panned anyway? Agreed that Collingwood isn't a form player (I don't really believe in form, it's all about conditions and the attack IMO), he's someone who scores when the conditions suit him, and struggles otherwise. Similar to Sehwag in that respect, though Sehwag has played a few top innings in conditions that haven't suited him (Sri Lanka on a turner, England on his first tour).

Well I suppose Bopara's still at the stage where he hasn't had his trial by fire, he did the job against the Windies but failures would have been very disappointing against such a weak attack. Until he proves himself against the Aussies and co he'll always get this kind of criticism. Don't think comparisons with bell are really fair, but he's not going to be the next tendulkar either.
Interesting POV that. Probably not an Ashes forum topic, but one wrth discussing.

I think I get the gist of what you're saying, but how does one explain, for example, Sutcliffe's wet wicket masterpiece in 1928-29 or say Steve Waugh's twin tons in the 1997 Ashes, in the context of that statement?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Why?

It's true he has yet to come close to his potential but he may just need a better challenge than county cricket to enable him to flourish.

There isn't anything wrong with his batting in terms of technique, he must just be bored playing county cricket. It happens.
If he can't raise himself for the prospect of getting out of county cricket I'm worried.

Banking on someone to be the next Gower (he's about the only one who's ever had a decent Test career for England while being a mediocre county batsman) is asking one hell of a lot.

Hildreth seems to me to be in the category of the likes of Vikram Solanki and Geraint Jones - looks great when he hits his shots well, but fails to pick the right one far, far too often and consequently looks like he could average 45-50 but can barely even manage to average 35.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
I'd agree with all of that, except Anderson maybe ahead of Siddle. Mainly because he's been far more consistent over the past 12 months and hasn't been injured either.
 

cowboy up

Banned
I'd agree with all of that, except Anderson maybe ahead of Siddle. Mainly because he's been far more consistent over the past 12 months and hasn't been injured either.
lee is coming back from a injury as well,he has played ipl but will he be up to test fitness yet?i hope so but am not banking on it
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Lose-lose though isn't it? If he'd failed then everyone would have said he stands no chance against the Aussies. As it is, he did what was asked of him. Three successive hundreds is not to be sniffed at, and don't forget that that's in innings, not matches.
Not really, he's done well but I was just pointing out that it's nothing to get too excited about yet as it was the WI who didn't seem to care a great deal. He's done all he can though, and he may well come out and score more runs against Australia. Let's not forget Sinclair though. 3 tests is too early to predict any sort of success.
 

rivera213

U19 Vice-Captain
There's no need at all to apologise for this!
Ha ha, ok.


On your summation of the rest of the Australian attack, I don't agree.
There is probably enough doubt on the bowling in both camps for me to wait for the action to start to completely pass judgement.
Well we're not great by any means, it's simply because it's at home that I think we're better. Come the 2010/11 Ashes I will be equally in favour of the Aussie attack (though I don't expect Lee or Clark to be there. Apparently McKay is heir apparent) over ours unless we learn to bowl in places other than at home on other wickets (Sydney and Adelaide will be especially difficult).


If he can't raise himself for the prospect of getting out of county cricket I'm worried.
It's not just that, he may also prefer pace bowlers. There's absolutely nothing saying he wont be in his element against the better bowlers of the world.

He's pretty crap against medium pacers, but a beautiful player on the off-side to fast-medium bowlers IMO.


Banking on someone to be the next Gower (he's about the only one who's ever had a decent Test career for England while being a mediocre county batsman) is asking one hell of a lot.
Michael Vaughan, Marcus Trescothick and Ravi Bopara also.

Well there is such a gap between international level (especially bowlers) and test level. I think long-term Hildreth is a better prospect than Bell who continually gets himself out, Shah who is Ramprakash mark 2 imo, Key who's obviously had his chance and blown it or Morgan who isn't ready for tests yet IMHO.

I'm hoping we don't need to find a replacement for Bopara.


Hildreth seems to me to be in the category of the likes of Vikram Solanki and Geraint Jones - looks great when he hits his shots well, but fails to pick the right one far, far too often and consequently looks like he could average 45-50 but can barely even manage to average 35.
Talent wise he's above both of those, but I understand what you're saying.

I just feel he's someone who needs to get out of the deathpit which is county cricket and away from that easy wicket @ Taunton to flourish. It's not uncommon for boredom to hinder talent.

There's no debate on his talent and much like Bell he is frustrating. But Bell has had his chance, I think if Bopara fails, we should try someone new. You never know- it may just work out.


Anderson v Lee
Flintoff v Johnson
Broad v Clark
Onions (?) v Siddle

Hmm, let me see. I'll take Lee, Johnson, Clark and Siddle. Thanks.
No, you'd take Lee and Clark based on their career overall. You aren't taking into account recent injury and lack of match practice coming into a 5-match series.

Also, you've got the comparisons wrong, it should be:

NEW BALL: Anderson and Broad vs Johnson and Siddle
1st CHANGE: Onions and Flintoff vs Hilfenhaus and 1 from Lee/Clark
SPIN: Swann vs Hauritz

I think while it's obvious Mitch is much better in all conditions than Anderson and Broad, this is England, pretty much the only place we bowl well and Siddle has yet to play a test here. He may take to it like a duck to water or he may flop. I think that's pretty even overall- though I expect Johnson to be the series leading wicket taker. Broad, while genuinely hitting 90mph+ isn't getting too many wickets.

The 2nd band is no comparison for me. Hilfenhaus is expensive and both Lee and Clark are coming off injuries plus are post-30. Flintoff always bowls accurately and even though he doesn't take wickets by number- takes important wickets (good batsmen) and bogs batsmen down with his accuracy.

The 3rd category is a no-brainer too. Hauritz is a very poor spinner, hell Paul Harris looks great in comparison! :laugh:

If Panesar or Rashid play, it'll only be at Cardiff. Since we aren't playing at Old Trafford, there's no need for 2 spinners anywhere else. All 3 of our spinners are way above Hauritz. Why Krejza isn't even in the squad, God knows!
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
It's not just that, he may also prefer pace bowlers. There's absolutely nothing saying he wont be in his element against the better bowlers of the world.

He's pretty crap against medium pacers, but a beautiful player on the off-side to fast-medium bowlers IMO.
If you're pretty crap against medium-pace, which any fool at Test level can bowl, that's rather worrying. Being able to play average medium-fast seamers who do not-a-lot with the ball is a basic prerequistite for any successful Test batsman.
Michael Vaughan, Marcus Trescothick and Ravi Bopara also.
Not really - Bopara has scored runs, runs and more runs the last 2-and-a-bit seasons; Vaughan and Trescothick have both had plenty of success at county level too. Collingwood is the only one of recent times who really bucks the trend and looks Gower-esque, but Gower is several planes ahead of Collingwood as a Test batsman.
Talent wise he's above both of those, but I understand what you're saying.

I just feel he's someone who needs to get out of the deathpit which is county cricket and away from that easy wicket @ Taunton to flourish. It's not uncommon for boredom to hinder talent.

There's no debate on his talent and much like Bell he is frustrating. But Bell has had his chance, I think if Bopara fails, we should try someone new. You never know- it may just work out.
If boredom hinders talent no player can ever hope to make the most of their talent. Mark Waugh is the ultimate example of this from my time - Test bowlers knew he could be bored out, so consequently he averaged 41-42 when he could quite easily have averaged 50 or the best part of with a higher boredom threshold.

A good batsman with a proper attitude should be thanking his lucky stars he's got Taunton as his home ground, not being bored and needing a better challenge. That attitude is like Murali Kartik, that left-arm fingerspin bowler (ie, bowler whose only chance of success is a turning pitch) who claimed he hated bowling on turners. Sacrificing your best asset is not a good way to go about things.
 

JimmyGS

First Class Debutant
No, you'd take Lee and Clark based on their career overall. You aren't taking into account recent injury and lack of match practice coming into a 5-match series.
Talking to Guppy today, he said Lee was bowling rapid during the warmup game. I fully expect him to be 2nd highest wicket taker behind Johnson.

Siddle has yet to play a test here. He may take to it like a duck to water or he may flop.
This is the whole point. I'd bet my bottom dollar that he will just love it.


The 2nd band is no comparison for me. Hilfenhaus is expensive
You think Onions is better than Hilfenhaus? Dear God.

Flintoff always bowls accurately and even though he doesn't take wickets by number- takes important wickets (good batsmen) and bogs batsmen down with his accuracy.
Let's see if he plays more than two tests first shall we? Even if he does play, he's not match fit and wasn't playing well before he was injured anyway.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Talking to Guppy today, he said Lee was bowling rapid during the warmup game. I fully expect him to be 2nd highest wicket taker behind Johnson.
He was also bowling rapidly in 2001. And on many other occasions.

Martin Guptill testifying that he was bowling quick is really of no relevance whatsoever. To be successful in Tests you need to do far, far more than that.
 

JimmyGS

First Class Debutant
Martin Guptill testifying that he was bowling quick is really of no relevance whatsoever. To be successful in Tests you need to do far, far more than that.
I say it would be. To me it means he's fit and in good shape, and also desperate to get back into international cricket and prove all his critics wrong.
 

rivera213

U19 Vice-Captain
Talking to Guppy today, he said Lee was bowling rapid during the warmup game. I fully expect him to be 2nd highest wicket taker behind Johnson.
Lee was bowling up to 93mph in the IPL. However:

1- That doesn't guarantee wickets.

2- How long can he sustain anywhere near that pace considering he's had no 4-day preperation?


This is the whole point. I'd bet my bottom dollar that he will just love it.
That remains to be seen. Everyone in England though Panesar would love India but it didn't work out.


You think Onions is better than Hilfenhaus? Dear God.
Yes, by some distance.


Let's see if he plays more than two tests first shall we? Even if he does play, he's not match fit and wasn't playing well before he was injured anyway.
He always bowls well when even 90% fit. Even if he only plays 2 tests, that may be enough.
 

rivera213

U19 Vice-Captain
:laugh: You don't much about Brett Lee do you
He was dropping pace considerably in just 4 overs in the IPL, how can you possibly think he will sustain a pace during 1 test, let alone a whole series when he hasn't had any prep in England?

That's laughable and considering he relies on pace I would be worried for him.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I say it would be. To me it means he's fit and in good shape, and also desperate to get back into international cricket and prove all his critics wrong.
He's also been fit and in good shape before - and had no effect. He's also been desperate to get back into international cricket and prove all his critics wrong - and had no effect.

What matters is whether Lee is bowling well - whether he's got his outswinger going and, most importantly, whether he's hitting good areas. Not whether he's bowling quickly; not whether he's in good physical shape; not whether he's got his head right. All these are merely means of access to bowling well - it still requires the physical talent, which Lee has not often demonstrated possession of.

If one is going to make any form of well-grounded predictions about how Lee's going to go in 2005 (poor or good), they need to know more than pretty much anyone knows right now.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
You are using the IPL to gauge his fitness, and the speeds he bowled to gauge that fitness.

That is laughable.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
He's also been fit and in good shape before - and had no effect. He's also been desperate to get back into international cricket and prove all his critics wrong - and had no effect.

What matters is whether Lee is bowling well - whether he's got his outswinger going and, most importantly, whether he's hitting good areas. Not whether he's bowling quickly; not whether he's in good physical shape; not whether he's got his head right. All these are merely means of access to bowling well - it still requires the physical talent, which Lee has not often demonstrated possession of.

If one is going to make any form of predictions about how Lee's going to go in 2005 (poor or good), they need to know more than pretty much anyone knows right now.
Lee was fantastic 07-early08
 

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