England Squad Form

[Richard]

You think Onions is better than Hilfenhaus? Dear God.

Yes, by some distance.

 

[Richard]

Lee was fantastic 07-early08

Ind33d he was - for a whole 8 months and 8 Tests. He was also fantastic for 12 months and 7 Tests in 1999/2000 and 2000/01 before that elbow injury.

Aside from these two mini-periods, however, he's been (mostly) absolutely diabolical or (occasionally) moderate bordering on acceptable.

 

[Athlai]

If he drops pace in 4 overs, you can pretty much guarantee he will do in 15 overs.

You're assuming the drop in pace was fitness related and not for him to bowl more accurately at the death.

 

[Athlai]

Ind33d he was - for a whole 8 months and 8 Tests. He was also fantastic for 12 months and 7 Tests in 1999/2000 and 2000/01 before that elbow injury.

Aside from these two mini-periods, however, he's been (mostly) absolutely diabolical or (occasionally) moderate bordering on acceptable.

Next period to be Ashes 09? Who knows.

 

[Richard]

Who knows ind33d. Given, however, that good has been in a fairly small minority and bad a much larger majority, hoping for him to be very poor once again is a perfectly well-grounded hope.

 

[Athlai]

Who knows ind33d. Given, however, that good has been in a fairly small minority and bad a much larger majority, hoping for him to be very poor once again is a perfectly well-grounded hope.

He'll probably bowl a great spell or two and be about as useful as Anderson 07-08

 

[JimmyGS]

That remains to be seen. Everyone in England though Panesar would love India but it didn't work out.

The difference being that Panesar is a very one demensional, very average spinner. And Indians are extremely good at playing spin.

He always bowls well when even 90% fit. Even if he only plays 2 tests, that may be enough.

Enough for what exactly? I don't understand.

 

[Richard]

The difference being that Panesar is a very one demensional, very average spinner. And Indians are extremely good at playing spin.

Siddle to date has also been a pretty one-dimensional bowler. Granted, his one dimension is much more useful than Panesar's, but Siddle is little more multidimensional than him.

 

[rivera213]

You're a HIlfenhaus fan?

I think he's decent, but in South Africa with picthes ideal for him he only took 7 wickets in 5 innings at an average of 50. That's Mohammad Sami level, though I don't believe in stats too much, I saw the series and I don't think he bowled that well IMHO.

Onions has a pretty average domestic record until last year (when he took 25 wickets @ 26.84, 47.08SR) but I think he could be a hit at international level. He's coming to the fore, it took him some time to find his game which in fairness he has done over the last 3 seasons including this and with his ability to swing the ball late ca 85-87mph and being able to bowl straight ca 88-90mph, he has some tools to work with.

Hilfenhaus can do what Onions does, only to a lesser degree IMO. He can swing the ball though not as much, as late or from as straight a line and loses control when bowling faster (from what I've seen).

Hilf has also been injured before and I don't rekcon he'll complete the Ashes.

You're assuming the drop in pace was fitness related and not for him to bowl more accurately at the death.

Not when he's putting everything into a delivery. That's not assumption, it's proof. He isn't a spring chicken anymore. I very much doubt he'll come back and bowl how he did last year before the injury having had no prep. He may get it sorted by the 4th test but that could theoretically be too late for Australia to win outright.

Last time around he took 20 wickets @ 41.10 when he was able to bowl fast for long periods. He's REALLY going to need to be on the button if he's bowling 3-5mph slower on average.

 

[rivera213]

The difference being that Panesar is a very one demensional, very average spinner. And Indians are extremely good at playing spin.

But he still spins the ball a lot and people expected him to do well in India. Not Bishan Bedi level, but a hell of alot better than he did.

IN fairness, since he's worked with Mushtaq Ahmed, he's developed an arm-ball and is working more on variation.

Enough for what exactly? I don't understand.

To help us win 2 matches. It's highly doubtful but Flintoff doesn't need all 5 games to make an impact.

Theoretically he could be available for the opening 2 matches, bowl like a good'un, get injured during the fnal innings he bowls in but having helped us win the opening 2 games.

It's not beyond possibility, people wrote off Bob Willis for other reasons before the 1981 Ashes.

 

[Prince EWS]

Hilfenhaus isn't relevant anyway given he's the fifth seamer on tour. Hell, he might even find himself behind McDonald. He's not gonna play.

Comparing him to Onions (who is vastly over-rated) makes about as much sense as comparing Stuart Clark to Tim Bresnan as a bowler.

 

[JimmyGS]

To help us win 2 matches. It's highly doubtful but Flintoff doesn't need all 5 games to make an impact.

Theoretically he could be available for the opening 2 matches, bowl like a good'un, get injured during the fnal innings he bowls in but having helped us win the opening 2 games.

 

[Uppercut]

Panesar's not going to be a threat to the Aussies i'm afraid, rivera. I'd be absolutely shocked if he does anything this series. Picking him for the "slow" Cardiff pitch would surely be a mistake considering he's never done anything at all on slow pitches before.

His start to the county season has been beyond a joke too. 4 wickets in 4 games at an average of 75 in Division Two, and in the one-dayers he's taken just two wickets in five matches @ 85. Mind you, it's two more wickets than he's taken in the five Twenty20 games he's played, where his record reads 16 overs for 107 runs and no wickets. How is he going to be useful in the Ashes when he can't take wickets in lower-level county games?

The guy is either useless or horrendously out of form. He might play against Australia. But he shouldn't.

 

[JimmyGS]

You're a HIlfenhaus fan?

No, but from a neutral perspective, I think it's pretty clear that he's a better bowler than Onions. Time will tell though.

 

[Uppercut]

No, but from a neutral perspective, I think it's pretty clear that he's a better bowler than Onions. Time will tell though.

Hmm. I agree, but i don't think it's clear cut. In any case, it's very rarely that you watch a match and think, "having a slightly superior third-change bowler was what made the difference for Australia today."

 

[Richard]

You're a HIlfenhaus fan?

I think he's decent, but in South Africa with picthes ideal for him he only took 7 wickets in 5 innings at an average of 50. That's Mohammad Sami level, though I don't believe in stats too much, I saw the series and I don't think he bowled that well IMHO.

Onions has a pretty average domestic record until last year (when he took 25 wickets @ 26.84, 47.08SR) but I think he could be a hit at international level. He's coming to the fore, it took him some time to find his game which in fairness he has done over the last 3 seasons including this and with his ability to swing the ball late ca 85-87mph and being able to bowl straight ca 88-90mph, he has some tools to work with.

Hilfenhaus can do what Onions does, only to a lesser degree IMO. He can swing the ball though not as much, as late or from as straight a line and loses control when bowling faster (from what I've seen).

I've always rated Onions as barely county-standard TBH - there are at least 3-4 better bowlers at Durham, though he is probably better than Liam Plunkett at least. Hilfenhaus, whether he's Test-class or not (and to write him off based on one average - not out-and-out poor - series in South Africa would clearly be foolhardy) is clearly a good bowler in state cricket in Australia.

I think Onions could only dream about being better than Hilfenhaus TBH. Regardless of the credentials of either at Test level.

Hilf has also been injured before and I don't rekcon he'll complete the Ashes.

Onions has been injured no shortage either, but neither are the sort I'd back to be regularly falling down.

 

[rivera213]

You don't think Flintoff could possibly help use win 2 games then?

You should write a letter to the ECB saying it's pointless to playing him at all.

No, but from a neutral perspective, I think it's pretty clear that he's a better bowler than Onions. Time will tell though.

There's nothing "pretty clear" about it. It's pretty clear Johnson is a better bowler but Hilfenhaus' record, skills and record to date is hardly standout and the main difference between him and Onions thus far is that on tracks suited to both of them, Onions took wickets. Before you say "it's only the West Indies blah blah blah", Hilfenhaus didn't pick up any Saffie talenders.

I've always rated Onions as barely county-standard TBH - there are at least 3-4 better bowlers at Durham, though he is probably better than Liam Plunkett at least. Hilfenhaus, whether he's Test-class or not (and to write him off based on one average - not out-and-out poor - series in South Africa would clearly be foolhardy) is clearly a good bowler in state cricket in Australia.

I think Onions could only dream about being better than Hilfenhaus TBH. Regardless of the credentials of either at Test level.

That's part of the problem, the Onions of up to 2006 was club quality at best but 2006 onwards he has been improving year by year and finding his game.

Onions of the last 2 seasons is nowhere near the 4th or 5th best bowler at Durham, that's complete BS. I'm sure Durham fans would agree.

There's no way 3 or 4 from S.Harmison, B.Harmison, Thorp, Muchall, Killeen and Plunkett are better than him. Steve Harmison in full flow- sure, but that doesn't happen much (if at all) nowadays and barring him, none of those are within a country mile of Onions yet alone being better.

I think the glamour of "Australia" puts people off clear rational thinking.

And 7 wickets in 5 innings is poor, that's not average. Average would be 10 or so and the bowling average of 50 is shocking on those wickets. He's MOhammad Sami mk.II.

HIs average in Aussie state cricket isn't exactly great either- 30+.

Onions has been injured no shortage either, but neither are the sort I'd back to be regularly falling down.

I actually think Hilfenhaus will miss a game in this Ashes due to a back ailment.

 

[JimmyGS]

You don't think Flintoff could possibly help use win 2 games then?

Not coming into the series off an injury with no match fitness and no overs under his belt.

 

[Richard]

That's part of the problem, the Onions of up to 2006 was club quality at best but 2006 onwards he has been improving year by year and finding his game.

Onions of the last 2 seasons is nowhere near the 4th or 5th best bowler at Durham, that's complete BS. I'm sure Durham fans would agree.

There's no way 3 or 4 from S.Harmison, B.Harmison, Thorp, Muchall, Killeen and Plunkett are better than him. Steve Harmison in full flow- sure, but that doesn't happen much (if at all) nowadays and barring him, none of those are within a country mile of Onions yet alone being better.

You've omitted Durham's best bowler (Mark Davies) in favour of a batsman who doesn't bowl (Muchall) which is a little odd. Ben Harmison isn't really a bowler but Davies and Stephen Harmison are clearly better, as is Thorp (though he's... well, yes, Australian); Plunkett and Claydon are both dreadful but I've often thought Onions is likewise. Killeen hasn't played First-Class cricket for about an eternity but he's obviously a far better one-day bowler than anyone else at the county (and indeed most bowlers in this country).

I don't feel Onions has been getting better year by year at all, just being in the right place at the right time. Bowling on the helpful decks and missing the flat ones due to being omitted for better-quality bowlers.

I think the glamour of "Australia" puts people off clear rational thinking.

And 7 wickets in 5 innings is poor, that's not average. Average would be 10 or so and the bowling average of 50 is shocking on those wickets. He's MOhammad Sami mk.II.

HIs average in Aussie state cricket isn't exactly great either- 30+.

The "glamour" doesn't put me off anything - I don't believe myths just because they're perpetuated. But there's no doubting the fact that Australian state cricket is of a higher standard than county cricket - has been the case virtually since time immemorial and certainly since the First World War. There, Hilfenhaus has had a couple of good seasons and one very poor one.

 

[Prince EWS]

I actually think Hilfenhaus will miss a game in this Ashes due to a back ailment.

I actually think Hilfenhaus will miss five games in this Ashes due to not being selected.

This is something you continually overlook. He's not expected to play.