England players who have failed to push on

[Lillian Thomson]

His scoring record flatters him.. been mediocre in tournaments and padded his record in friendlies/vs. ****e opposition in qualifiers, with lots of penalties. People still think of his performance in Euro 2004 when they think of his international career.

2004 isn't what most people think about. It's all the failures since.

 

[sledger]

Rooney's domestic scoring record is pretty good though, especially if you discount the last couple of years. Was prolific 4-5 years ago.

 

[Furball]

I'd describe it as above average. He's always mixed really prolific seasons with ****e.

 

[Tangles]

I feel Rooney had more potential early and he plateaued before he got anywhere near it. There was the opinion that he could be as good as Ronaldo at one point. Maybe that was just the English player overhype but I do remember it from United fans and pundits. Think he was much better for United than he has been for England. Not sure how long it's been or if I ever felt he was a WC player who could decide an international.

 

[Uppercut]

Rooney was a seriously good player at his peak. Usually these discussions unfavourably compare his development to Ronaldo's, which makes me think his potential was just way overrated to begin with.

 

[GIMH]

Rooney was a seriously good player at his peak. Usually these discussions unfavourably compare his development to Ronaldo's, which makes me think his potential was just way overrated to begin with.

He was probably the better player circa 04-06 and I guess people cling to that, ignoring that Rooney was already close to his peak while Ronaldo was just working through the early gears

 

[Tangles]

Rooney was a seriously good player at his peak. Usually these discussions unfavourably compare his development to Ronaldo's, which makes me think his potential was just way overrated to begin with.

He was a very good player but there was a feeling that he would be special. And maybe that was an incorrect asssment that left some fans waiting for a level of play that would never come.

I must admit that I never warmed to him like some of our other players. His attitude and contract shenanigans were annoying. He hit a wall 2 years ago and refuses to admit it. Talking himself up as the next Scholes is too much. I'm a massive Scholes fan and Rooney has no idea what he's talking about.

 

[Uppercut]

He was probably the better player circa 04-06 and I guess people cling to that, ignoring that Rooney was already close to his peak while Ronaldo was just working through the early gears

Yeah Ronaldo was less effective then but he had all the attributes of a future superstar- crazy pace and rapid change of direction, killer technique etc., he just had to figure out how to use it. Rooney never had those attributes so getting to the Messi/Ronaldo level was impossible and given what he had I think he did pretty well.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah Ronaldo was less effective then but he had all the attributes of a future superstar- crazy pace and rapid change of direction, killer technique etc., he just had to figure out how to use it. Rooney never had those attributes so getting to the Messi/Ronaldo level was impossible and given what he had I think he did pretty well.

Agree

 

[wpdavid]

Yeah, I couldn't put Rooney in this category, even if he's never again been as brilliant for England as he was in 2004.
Likewise Owen, as his decline was mainly down to injuries, wasn't it?

I stand by the others though. Most of them, anyway. Even if they do have time to turn it around, there's no pretending that their careers have developed the way we thought they would. And that's the major concern if we're ever hoping to build a successful team again.

 

[GIMH]

Barkley, Sterling and Ox are surely too young for the discussion though?

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Barkley, Sterling and Ox are surely too young for the discussion though?

Would think so, particularly given that Barkley has had about 10 minutes on the pitch in 2 tournaments.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Michael Owen doesn't belong anywhere near this discussion.

Yeah agreed. Owen was amongst the best in Europe, or even the world up to around 2002/3.

Fair posts.

Didn't really mention him as someone who never became great though, just an observation that like Rooney, his best moments for England came as a teenager and they never quite hit those heights again in international colours.

 

[GIMH]

Fair posts.

Didn't really mention him as someone who never became great though, just an observation that like Rooney, his best moments for England came as a teenager and they never quite hit those heights again in international colours.

Owen hit a hat trick away to Germany to take us to a 5-1 win and scored in five tournaments in a row. Can't really agree.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Of course he was still pretty great for a few years after 98, but not quite as great

 

[GIMH]

He didn't perhaps have moments as memorable as the Argentina goal (aforementioned hat trick aside) but I don't think there was ever a drop in his performance levels. Can't really remember his place being questioned much post-Keegan (who I think may have dropped him at some point?) up to his injury problems really kicked in

 

[Uppercut]

Has anyone played as well for England in the past 20 years as Owen between '98 and '04? Feels like he scored in almost every big game they played around that time.

 

[Ikki]

Can't bring up guys like Owen or Rooney, they actually will still go down as all-time greats.

Barkley and Sterling are still way too young too. I'd say the guys that didn't push on were the likes of Jenas or Johnson who were good when they were young but never became anything more than average - relative to the EPL standard.

Yeah Ronaldo was less effective then but he had all the attributes of a future superstar- crazy pace and rapid change of direction, killer technique etc., he just had to figure out how to use it. Rooney never had those attributes so getting to the Messi/Ronaldo level was impossible and given what he had I think he did pretty well.

Something not brought up as much about why Ronaldo is a success: the insane drive to get better and work to be the best player in the world.

I've said it before that to other players it must be daunting playing in the Messi era yet Ronaldo comes back every year defiantly trying to be even better than his nemesis. Messi is like an alien and Ronaldo is like the perfected human trying to chase him. He gets massive respect from me for that even though I think Messi is simply better.

 

[GIMH]

Has anyone played as well for England in the past 20 years as Owen between '98 and '04? Feels like he scored in almost every big game they played around that time.

Not in my book

 

[Furball]

I was going to argue for Platt and Gascoigne until I realise that 20 years only takes you back to 1996.