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Daniel Vettori vs Yuvraj Singh- who's better all-round?
- Thread starter Arjun
- Start date
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
The point is really that ODIs are won by batsmen. Just as Tests are won by bowlers.
A bowler, in a ODI, can bowl only 1\5th of the innings. A batsman can bat as long as he's good enough to bat. Hence, you've got to go quite some as a bowler to win a game either on your own or near on your own. I've often said, in the economy-vs-strike-rate question, that no one bowler, if the rest of his attack is weak, can help cause a small total whether he takes 10-28-0 or 10-55-4. However, one batsman scoring 70 or 80 can basically win a low-scoring ODI for his side, and one batsman getting 130 while another couple get 40 or 50 can win a high-scoring one.
It's hard, IMO, to argue that bowlers are all that often matchwinners in ODIs. And I'm not much of a fan of the "matchwinner" term at the best of times.
Redbacks
International Captain
Apon further inspection of a batting card this theory might not always hold in the particular case. If the bowler takes 4 key wickets i.e. got out Hayden, Gilly, Ponting and Symonds in his spell, taking out 'key' players will certainly shield the team's weaker bowlers from key players and will lead to a smaller total in most cases if the replacement batters are inferior.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
In the exceptionally rare event that someone takes four top-order wickets at the start of the innings... then maybe you're talking. Even then, if the rest of the attack bowls crap they'll get the treatment.
However, mostly four-fors (and more) will involve at least one meaningless wicket at the death and maybe another not-particularly-helpful one in the middle.
If you take six (provided they're not almost all at the end like this one) then that very probably will influence the innings considerably (as will 10-16-0) unless the rest of the attack is of diabolical proportions. But just a routine three\four (which is almost always all you can manage in ten overs - and that's on good days; no bowler will ever take regular five-fors in ODIs) will usually involve insufficient taking of wickets at the important time (ie, the start of the innings) to be something that can in itself aid the keeping of your opposition to a good score.
However, mostly four-fors (and more) will involve at least one meaningless wicket at the death and maybe another not-particularly-helpful one in the middle.
If you take six (provided they're not almost all at the end like this one) then that very probably will influence the innings considerably (as will 10-16-0) unless the rest of the attack is of diabolical proportions. But just a routine three\four (which is almost always all you can manage in ten overs - and that's on good days; no bowler will ever take regular five-fors in ODIs) will usually involve insufficient taking of wickets at the important time (ie, the start of the innings) to be something that can in itself aid the keeping of your opposition to a good score.
Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
This was supposed to analyse ODI performances in particular, as Yuvraj hasn't played much Test cricket. The question came about when the list of top all-rounders was released a few weeks ago, which featured Shoaib Malik, Shahid Afridi and Yuvraj Singh, and was led by Shakib-ul-hasan. A few asked, why was Vettori not in this list, and said he'd make a bigger impact with the bat in a single series than Yuvraj would with the ball in a whole season.
Looking closely at the stats, however, I noticed that Vettori's bowling figures are far from flattering, while his batting appears less than utility-player quality. Yet, he's been a strike bowler for the Kiwis, and held his own even outside spin-friendly pitches in the subcontinent and the odd SCG or Pretoria. Ever since Cairns and Harris retired and Styris and Oram were no longer regular players in the XI, he's had to be the all-rounder for his team, and has done rather well there. His batting, though far from inspiring, has improved greatly in the recent past.
On the other hand, Yuvraj has established himself as a top ODI batsman only lately, and has often had to play second-fiddle to Ganguly, Tendulkar, Dravid and Sehwag. His bowling was, and still is, never considered good enough to go the whole 22 yards consistently. He still bowls barely three overs a match on an average, even in India. We hear so much of India's spin stocks thinning, but Yuvraj has never been thought of as an option as a full-fledged spinner, despite those occasional good performances in home matches, including a good run against Kevin Pietersen. Yet he's made this list of top all-rounders, which got some of us, including me, thinking. One's absolutely amazing at one skill and dire at the other, while the other is a little over average at one skill and half-decent at the other.
Looking closely at the stats, however, I noticed that Vettori's bowling figures are far from flattering, while his batting appears less than utility-player quality. Yet, he's been a strike bowler for the Kiwis, and held his own even outside spin-friendly pitches in the subcontinent and the odd SCG or Pretoria. Ever since Cairns and Harris retired and Styris and Oram were no longer regular players in the XI, he's had to be the all-rounder for his team, and has done rather well there. His batting, though far from inspiring, has improved greatly in the recent past.
On the other hand, Yuvraj has established himself as a top ODI batsman only lately, and has often had to play second-fiddle to Ganguly, Tendulkar, Dravid and Sehwag. His bowling was, and still is, never considered good enough to go the whole 22 yards consistently. He still bowls barely three overs a match on an average, even in India. We hear so much of India's spin stocks thinning, but Yuvraj has never been thought of as an option as a full-fledged spinner, despite those occasional good performances in home matches, including a good run against Kevin Pietersen. Yet he's made this list of top all-rounders, which got some of us, including me, thinking. One's absolutely amazing at one skill and dire at the other, while the other is a little over average at one skill and half-decent at the other.
masterblaster
International Captain
I'd go for Daniel Vettori purely for consistency and a much better temperament. Yuvraj is unbelievably talented but has poor discipline, is unreliable and goes through periods of very poor form.
Mentally he is not as strong as Daniel Vettori who seems to be a more thinking cricketer and a cricketer who can keep his emotions in check and read the game more precisely. For his discipline, his mental strength and the fact that he's a more dangerous player all round with ball and bat, my pick would have to be Daniel Vettori.
Mentally he is not as strong as Daniel Vettori who seems to be a more thinking cricketer and a cricketer who can keep his emotions in check and read the game more precisely. For his discipline, his mental strength and the fact that he's a more dangerous player all round with ball and bat, my pick would have to be Daniel Vettori.
Something_Fishy
School Boy/Girl Captain
Uppercut
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Vettori. His bowling record in T20s is pretty much the undisputed best in the world.
Unless Stuart Broad is in the other team.
Jigga988
State 12th Man
thierry henry
International Coach
Vettori's bowling stats over the last 2 or 3 years are nothing short of outstanding, hence him pretty much coming from nowhere a few years ago to the #1 ranked ODI bowler in the world.
Brett Dale
School Boy/Girl Captain
Vettori by far, in tests I think he has been one of our best batsmen in the past six years.
Evermind
International Debutant
Hmm....
Code:
[FONT="Arial"]unfiltered 1997-2009 235 220 239 5/7 32.26 4.16 46.5
filtered 2006-2009 64 60 75 5/7 29.01 4.01 43.4 [/FONT]Removing the minnows:
filtered 2006-2009 52 49 56 4/20 32.14 4.04 47.6
We're back to his career average. The WIndies and SA hate playing him, but against Australia he averages 62. I don't think we should read too much into that #1 ODI ranking.
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Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Thread is about ODIs.
thierry henry
International Coach
I'm surprised tbh. Maybe if you filtered it for the last 2 years or something it would be a little better.
Anyway.....he has improved from a good e/r bowler (4.3ish maybe) who averaged mid-30s, to an outstanding e/r bowler (4) with an average under 30, which I would describe as the numbers of an excellent ODI bowler.
I certainly don't think he's comparable to Warne or Murali, he'll always be high-20s/low 4s at best, but those are excellent figures, world-class figures (mostly because of the e/r).
Evermind
International Debutant
2007 - 2009 he does worse, I'm afraid.
That includes an average of 160 against Australia. He only managed to do really well against the Windies again, which accounts for the relatively ok average.
Code:
[FONT="Arial"]
wkts avg er sr
unfiltered 1997-2009 235 220 239 5/7 32.26 4.16 46.
filtered 2007-2009 32 30 33 4/20 33.15 4.04 49.1[/FONT]
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Precambrian
Banned
Yuvraj Singh.
silentstriker
The Wheel is Forever
Let's see - one is an established Test player, while the other one isn't. I'll take the Test player easily. Vettori.
Precambrian
Banned
Unbelievable. So given a choice between Bevan and Jayawardene for ODIs, you'd go for Jayawardene because he is better test player????
