andyc
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
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Cricinfo All-time series "Eleven of the best"
- Thread starter aussie
- Start date
L Trumper
State Regular
Based on your logic, you can place bradman, ponting as openers , and fill a middle order with waugh, border, chappell etc. Considering all these are considerably better players than hayden, and if ponting can open so is bradman. In the end no need for hayden in the team. An all time XI without recognized openers with a beautiful flawed logic, Imagine that.
P.S:
Just because you don't like lawry or simpson doesn't make hayden considerably better than them.
Himannv
International Coach
Agree completely with this view. Have to admit that initially I felt that Morris wasn't the best choice for opener and I thought another fast bowler like Lindwall or Davidson should have probably made it, but after thinking about it, it does seem like a good selection. O'Reilly is pretty good and will bowl pretty well in tandem with Warne so its a good option. Morris isn't all that bad as a pure opener as well and he is more than capable of doint the job for them although I think Hayden is a bit unlucky to miss out. Also with the batting they already have, I doubt they need Ponting all that much.
wfdu_ben91
International 12th Man
No, that's not my logic.
Hayden is the only Australian opener who I'd consider an alltime great Opening Batsman; none of the others come into that class. An alltime great higher-middle order batsman deserves to be in an alltime XI moreso then another opener who is just good.
Why sacrifice a player who is arguably in the countries top 4-5 batsman for another batsman who probably isn't even rated in the countries top 10 batsman? It just lessens the quality of the side. The XI I selected were Australia's greatest and most successful cricketers. Only Bradman is considerably better then Hayden, whilst the others are better, but not by a marginal distance.
It's not flawed logic, it's incapable comprehension.
King Pietersen
International Captain
Victor Trumper
Arthur Morris
Sir Don Bradman
Greg Chappell
Allan Border
Keith Miller
Adam Gilchrist +
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Bill O'Reilly
Glenn McGrath
Would be my Aus XI, in total agreement with the Cricinfo side.
Arthur Morris
Sir Don Bradman
Greg Chappell
Allan Border
Keith Miller
Adam Gilchrist +
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Bill O'Reilly
Glenn McGrath
Would be my Aus XI, in total agreement with the Cricinfo side.
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Each to his own I suppose.
Hayden wouldn't even carry the drinks for my list of Australia's 11 greatest cricketers.
As to the rest, well yes that's a lot of great players there but I'm always a bit reluctant to pack these kinds of teams with recent players to quite this degree.
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
With due respect, I don't think your experience of batting on training wickets sheds a great deal of light on how good a batsman Victor Trumper was.
Athlai
Not Terrible
Don't know if I'd personally have two spinners in there. Reckon O'Reily was marginally the better spinner but Warne's whole package offers more to the team so would keep him and toss up between adding more batting or bowling.
L Trumper
State Regular
Hayden is in the country's top 5 batsmen according to you. Likes of trumper, morris, lawry, simpson, langer et al are not in the top 10 list of aussie batsmen according to you.
Regarding your previous post on trumper and barnes : Barnes besides bowling in 100 - 120 kph averaged a mere 16 runs per wicket, playing him now(hypothetically0 and playing him 100 years ago isn't the same thing. Hayden came 100 years after trumper and you are comparing their relative strengths, it doesn't work that way. You should compare how both of them did amongst their peers and conditions at the time they are playing.
Hayden had a SR around 60 in 2000s which is impressive, but trumper by all accounts reportedly has SR around 68 (bagapath mentioned it i'm not sure) at the time when SR of most of the batsmen is around 35 - 50. Hayden averaged 50 with the bat at the time where 22(out of 70-80 recogn.) other batsmen did the same. Trumper averaged 39 with the bat at the time when only 2 people (one is J.Hobbs) (out of 25 - 30 recogn. batsman) averaged more. Do I think hayden could've batted barnes better than trumper? Of course I do.. But hayden born 100 years later, had better grasp of the game than the people who played before him. But while selecting an all time XI you have to look at the context where, when and how they played..
L Trumper
State Regular
Like athlai said two spinners seems to be a over kill in that list. I'd replace O'reilly with lindwall in the list. Apart from that pretty much same. Hayden in place of one of the openers wouldn't be bad especially in sub continent.
wfdu_ben91
International 12th Man
You should select the best players for an alltime XI, not based on context or because they played in a less professional era. Over time there has anyways been atleast 3-5 great batsman emerge from each decade and despite last decade being batting friendly there were batsman who emerged as alltime great batsman.
1920s: J Hobbs, H Sutcliffe
1930s: D Bradman, W Hammond, G Headley
1940s: WAR
1950s: E Weekes, F Worrell, C Walcott, L Hutton, D Compton
1960s: G Sobers, K Barrington, G Pollock
1970s: G Chappell, S Gavaskar, B Richards
1980s: V Richards, J Miandad, A Border
1990s: S Tendulkar, B Lara, S Waugh
2000s: R Ponting, M Hayden, J Kallis, R Dravid
2010s: K Pietersen? G Smith? V Sehwag? P Hughes? A de Villiers? S Watson?
vic_orthdox
Global Moderator
Hmm, Bob Simpson worth a spot as opener, he does have a pretty good record there (averaging more than 50, IIRC).
wfdu_ben91
International 12th Man
Matthew Hayden - One of the finest to wear the Baggy Green
- wfdu_ben91
Written January 2009
Tall, broad shouldered and fearsome is probably 3 reasonable words of defining Matthew Hayden. His presence in the field and when batting was second to none. Expectation and excitement would fill the air as he would crouch down to his knees to inspect the pitch to get a feel of the atmosphere. It was a menacing tactic just to keep the bowler nervous at the top of his mark and was an obvious plot by probably the most intimidating Opening batsman to have ever played the game. What would be going through the bowlers mind would be a different question. Hayden would thrush forward onto the front foot as soon as the bowler would release the ball. You could pitch it full and risk being bludgeoned through the off or on side or dig it in short and be clubbed to the leg-side boundary within' a matter of seconds. Putting the ball on a length could only result in pure annihilation - Hayden could take 2 steps down the pitch at anytime he wanted and either smash it straight over your head or hoist the ball into the grandstand at deep midwicket. What to hope for? That he was in a less of an unforgiving mood or that he smacked it straight to a fieldsman but even so, it would still take some catching. When he was in full flight, only few could match him.
Years of dominating domestic cricket probably fueled Hayden's desire to craft out so many hundreds on a consistent basis. He made his first-class debut at 20 years old age and smashed 149 after asking if anyone had ever scored a double ton on debut. He was unlucky not to make his debut in England in the early 1990's after dominating in tour matches but eventually was capped in South Africa; only to score 15 & 5 respectively. He was also tried in the ODI's but was axed shortly after failing to make an impact. He didn't play another Test until the Boxing Day Test against the West Indies in 1996, where he only contributed 5 runs in 2 innings. He was given another chance where he showed glimpses of his later self by scoring his maiden Test century at the Adelaide oval. He was later dropped after failing to contribute in South Africa.
Hayden got his chance in India of 2001, shortly after passing of the great Sir Donald Bradman. Hayden had specifically prepared for this tour by producing pitches not to dissimilar to the ones in India and constantly practiced the sweep-shot to perfection. The Indian tour would be the making of Matthew Hayden as he amassed 549 runs, an Australian record for a three-Test series. His hunger for runs didn't cease after this tour. By the end of 2001, Hayden had broken Bob Simpson's record of most runs in a calender year by an Australian.
The start of 2002 saw Hayden tour South Africa for the 3rd time in his career. He would prove his demons in South Africa wrong, finishing with an average of 61 for the series and getting the last laugh on his former tormentor in his earlier days - Allan Donald. He would carry on his prolific run-scoring form against Pakistan in a neutral tour of Sri Lanka and the United Arab Emirates. He would produce one of his finest innings in Test Cricket - A 7 hour 119 in over 50 degree heat. Little over 400 runs were scored by both teams combined, with Hayden being the only batsman to score over 45 runs for the match. The Pakistani attack featured Waqar Younis, Saqlain Mushtaq and Shoaib Akhtar. Many believe that this is when Shoaib was at his peak but Hayden was better.
2002 was also the year where Hayden made his name in the ODI arena, following the departure of Mark Waugh. Hayden officially cemented his spot in the ODI side by belting 146 off 128 against a Pakistani pace attack of hostility. Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis and Shoaib Akhtar were all not spared - All went for over 6 runs an over as Hayden bullied them around as if he was playing backyard cricket against a bunch of 10 year olds. Within' 6 months of cementing his spot in the ODI outfit, Hayden was ranked the best ODI batsman in the world and he would spend the majority of 2002-2003 at number 1 in both formats of the game.
After a brilliant Ashes series against England and a relatively disappointing World Cup from his standards, Hayden set his sights on Zimbabwe where he blastered the highest Test score in history, 380 in only little over 5 sessions. Hayden's dominance in world cricket was well noted as he was named Wisden Cricketer of the Year later that year. Hayden's Test average would reach as high as 58 in mid 2004 after scoring twin-centuries against Sri Lanka to take his career record to 20 Test tons from only 55 matches.
If there was any criticism of Hayden then it would be that he tended to struggle against sharp late swing, especially early on in his career and in England 2005. A gritty 138 at the Oval ultimately saved his career, despite not being enough to see Australia retain the Ashes. Although his ability to regain his concentration under such pressure after several rain delays during his innings was something to be admired. He backed up this innings, scoring a ton against the ICC World XI and 2 more against the West Indies to become only the 3rd player to hit 4 hundreds in 4 matches twice. Despite a dodgy start to 2005, he still finished the year with over 1,000 runs, the first player in the history of the game to accomplish the feat 5 years in a row.
After recapturing his heights in Test Cricket, he was determined to reclaim his ODI spot at the top of the order after being dropped following the Ashes loss in 2005, despite being in his mid 30's. Australia later went onto regain the Ashes. 5-0, in-fact with Hayden averaging over 50 for the series which ultimately regained the selectors faith in him. You could argue that Daniel Vettori possibly won Australia the World Cup in the triangular series between New Zealand and England before the World Cup had even gotten under way. Vettori dropped Hayden on 0 in probably Hayden's last chance to cement his place in the World Cup and Hayden went onto post a career saving 100. What later transpired in the World Cup was probably the most dominant display of batting ever in the history of ODI cricket. After scoring 181 not out in New Zealand, Hayden went onto score 3 hundreds in the World Cup in devastating fashion. Had Glenn McGrath not taken majority votes in judging the Player of the Tournament in games against Scotland and Ireland then Hayden would've most certainly won the Player of the Tournament. You could've also argued that if Hayden had of batted against Ireland in the World Cup then Hayden would've smashed Tendulkar's record of highest runs scored in a World Cup tournament. Instead Hayden fell 14 runs short and finished with 659 runs at an average of 73.22.
Hayden continued his awesome form throughout 2007. Being the leading run-scorer in the first ever Twenty20 World Cup and having a fairly decent ODI series in India before getting injured. India toured Australia in the season 2007/08 season and Hayden immediately made an impact, scoring his 6th Test 100 at the MCG in his last 7 games. He would also score hundreds at the SCG and Adelaide Oval with the latter being his 30th Test ton to surpass Sir Donald Bradman. Hayden was the quickest player in history to score 30 Test hundreds in least amount of matches played and following this match he had the 3rd best conversion rate between matches played and 100's scored in the history of the game.
Sadly, Hayden's best seems to be behind him and only a year after being so dominant in world cricket, his career seems to be over. Since returning from a severe ankle injury, Hayden has not been able to capture his form and has failed to register a 100. He did however reach 100 Test Caps, a very exclusive club considering his averaged over 50 for the best part of his career. However it does look that his career appears to be over and it looks as if he will go out on a low but he deserves to remembered as one of the greats. He is indeed, one of the finest to represent Australia in cricket.
Years of dominating domestic cricket probably fueled Hayden's desire to craft out so many hundreds on a consistent basis. He made his first-class debut at 20 years old age and smashed 149 after asking if anyone had ever scored a double ton on debut. He was unlucky not to make his debut in England in the early 1990's after dominating in tour matches but eventually was capped in South Africa; only to score 15 & 5 respectively. He was also tried in the ODI's but was axed shortly after failing to make an impact. He didn't play another Test until the Boxing Day Test against the West Indies in 1996, where he only contributed 5 runs in 2 innings. He was given another chance where he showed glimpses of his later self by scoring his maiden Test century at the Adelaide oval. He was later dropped after failing to contribute in South Africa.
Hayden got his chance in India of 2001, shortly after passing of the great Sir Donald Bradman. Hayden had specifically prepared for this tour by producing pitches not to dissimilar to the ones in India and constantly practiced the sweep-shot to perfection. The Indian tour would be the making of Matthew Hayden as he amassed 549 runs, an Australian record for a three-Test series. His hunger for runs didn't cease after this tour. By the end of 2001, Hayden had broken Bob Simpson's record of most runs in a calender year by an Australian.
The start of 2002 saw Hayden tour South Africa for the 3rd time in his career. He would prove his demons in South Africa wrong, finishing with an average of 61 for the series and getting the last laugh on his former tormentor in his earlier days - Allan Donald. He would carry on his prolific run-scoring form against Pakistan in a neutral tour of Sri Lanka and the United Arab Emirates. He would produce one of his finest innings in Test Cricket - A 7 hour 119 in over 50 degree heat. Little over 400 runs were scored by both teams combined, with Hayden being the only batsman to score over 45 runs for the match. The Pakistani attack featured Waqar Younis, Saqlain Mushtaq and Shoaib Akhtar. Many believe that this is when Shoaib was at his peak but Hayden was better.
2002 was also the year where Hayden made his name in the ODI arena, following the departure of Mark Waugh. Hayden officially cemented his spot in the ODI side by belting 146 off 128 against a Pakistani pace attack of hostility. Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis and Shoaib Akhtar were all not spared - All went for over 6 runs an over as Hayden bullied them around as if he was playing backyard cricket against a bunch of 10 year olds. Within' 6 months of cementing his spot in the ODI outfit, Hayden was ranked the best ODI batsman in the world and he would spend the majority of 2002-2003 at number 1 in both formats of the game.
After a brilliant Ashes series against England and a relatively disappointing World Cup from his standards, Hayden set his sights on Zimbabwe where he blastered the highest Test score in history, 380 in only little over 5 sessions. Hayden's dominance in world cricket was well noted as he was named Wisden Cricketer of the Year later that year. Hayden's Test average would reach as high as 58 in mid 2004 after scoring twin-centuries against Sri Lanka to take his career record to 20 Test tons from only 55 matches.
If there was any criticism of Hayden then it would be that he tended to struggle against sharp late swing, especially early on in his career and in England 2005. A gritty 138 at the Oval ultimately saved his career, despite not being enough to see Australia retain the Ashes. Although his ability to regain his concentration under such pressure after several rain delays during his innings was something to be admired. He backed up this innings, scoring a ton against the ICC World XI and 2 more against the West Indies to become only the 3rd player to hit 4 hundreds in 4 matches twice. Despite a dodgy start to 2005, he still finished the year with over 1,000 runs, the first player in the history of the game to accomplish the feat 5 years in a row.
After recapturing his heights in Test Cricket, he was determined to reclaim his ODI spot at the top of the order after being dropped following the Ashes loss in 2005, despite being in his mid 30's. Australia later went onto regain the Ashes. 5-0, in-fact with Hayden averaging over 50 for the series which ultimately regained the selectors faith in him. You could argue that Daniel Vettori possibly won Australia the World Cup in the triangular series between New Zealand and England before the World Cup had even gotten under way. Vettori dropped Hayden on 0 in probably Hayden's last chance to cement his place in the World Cup and Hayden went onto post a career saving 100. What later transpired in the World Cup was probably the most dominant display of batting ever in the history of ODI cricket. After scoring 181 not out in New Zealand, Hayden went onto score 3 hundreds in the World Cup in devastating fashion. Had Glenn McGrath not taken majority votes in judging the Player of the Tournament in games against Scotland and Ireland then Hayden would've most certainly won the Player of the Tournament. You could've also argued that if Hayden had of batted against Ireland in the World Cup then Hayden would've smashed Tendulkar's record of highest runs scored in a World Cup tournament. Instead Hayden fell 14 runs short and finished with 659 runs at an average of 73.22.
Hayden continued his awesome form throughout 2007. Being the leading run-scorer in the first ever Twenty20 World Cup and having a fairly decent ODI series in India before getting injured. India toured Australia in the season 2007/08 season and Hayden immediately made an impact, scoring his 6th Test 100 at the MCG in his last 7 games. He would also score hundreds at the SCG and Adelaide Oval with the latter being his 30th Test ton to surpass Sir Donald Bradman. Hayden was the quickest player in history to score 30 Test hundreds in least amount of matches played and following this match he had the 3rd best conversion rate between matches played and 100's scored in the history of the game.
Sadly, Hayden's best seems to be behind him and only a year after being so dominant in world cricket, his career seems to be over. Since returning from a severe ankle injury, Hayden has not been able to capture his form and has failed to register a 100. He did however reach 100 Test Caps, a very exclusive club considering his averaged over 50 for the best part of his career. However it does look that his career appears to be over and it looks as if he will go out on a low but he deserves to remembered as one of the greats. He is indeed, one of the finest to represent Australia in cricket.
- wfdu_ben91
Written January 2009
L Trumper
State Regular
What about 1890's & 1900's : V Trumper, C. Hill, J. Hobbs [Aren't they great batsmen of their era?]
Teja.
Global Moderator
Following Ben's method, For the sake of curiosity, I used SH to find out the statistical all time-greats of the previous decades.
1880s:-WL Murdoch, WG Grace, A Shrewsbury, AG Steel
1890s:-KS Ranjitsinhji, TM Hayward, C Hill, S.Jackson
1900s:-R Duff, V Trumper, WW Armstrong
1910s:-J Hobbs, A Faulkner, W Bardsley
Teja.
Global Moderator
All-time XI | Cricinfo Magazine | Cricinfo.com
The Team is out.
The XI
Saeed Anwar
Hanif Mohammad
Zaheer Abbas
Javed Miandad
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Imran Khan
Rashid Latif
Wasim Akram
Fazal Mahmood
Abdul Qadir
Waqar Younis
Abbas out, Yousuf in would be my only change.
The Team is out.
The XI
Saeed Anwar
Hanif Mohammad
Zaheer Abbas
Javed Miandad
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Imran Khan
Rashid Latif
Wasim Akram
Fazal Mahmood
Abdul Qadir
Waqar Younis
Abbas out, Yousuf in would be my only change.
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
Haha this is the team I had been waiting for.
The only difference in my team would have been either Majir Khan or Younis Khan at number 3 instead of Zaheer Abbas. Other than that, this is as unbeatable team.
I am glad they went for Rashid Latif because he is by far the best wicket keeper Pakistan has produced.
The only difference in my team would have been either Majir Khan or Younis Khan at number 3 instead of Zaheer Abbas. Other than that, this is as unbeatable team.
I am glad they went for Rashid Latif because he is by far the best wicket keeper Pakistan has produced.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Interesting that you say that - and the team selected backs you up. I'd always had the impression that Wasim Bari was considered Pakistan's greatest ever 'keeper.
Xuhaib
International Coach
As pure keepers both are on par Latif batting was usefull not all rounder level mind you while Bari was nothing more then an irritating tailendeer.
Fast bowling is really scary.