Butt/Amir/Asif - Spot Fixing Trial

[harsh.ag]

To have sympathy would be to see he isn't the biggest villan in this episode, and was a kid who didn't know better, and has the potential to contribute a great deal to cricket, overall a loss from several perspectives.

Now unless you uniformly have no sympathy for people who make mistakes and are being punished then fine, if not then interesting to know why on earth it would sicken you.

There are no do-overs in Galt's Gulch.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I find it hilarious that Amir is still being called a "kid". I'd have a bit of sympathy for this naive poor baby if after actually doing the fix, he hadn't lied in court, and then brazely broke the terms of the ban and played for a domestic club. I felt sorry for him initially, but after all the subsequent things he did, you have to be a bit dim to want him to get off lightly.

And the "it was only one no-ball" excuse is sickening, because from what we know, that one no-ball was actually a signal to Mazhar Majeed that he was ready to do this stuff again, and possibly move on to even more sinister things. Anyone who says it was a one-off is kidding themselves. A life ban for all 3 of them would've sent an incredibly strong message to every single cricketer on the planet. The ICC had the chance to stamp it out of the game for a long time by being firm, but they dropped the ball.

 

[Valer]

For those advocating a zero tolerance approach how would have you sentenced Waugh and Warne?

Give two answers if the time frame (i.e then and now) makes a difference.

 

[Fusion]

Amir did a despicable thing, and then paid the price for it. Not only did he get banned, he actually served time in prison. That's not getting off lightly in my book. Also, I find it surprising that some people simply dismiss the "he was young and made a mistake" argument. A 19/20 year old is really susceptible to being influenced into doing bad things. Doesn't mean that young kid shouldn't be punished for said things, but to have zero tolerance for that young man and not allow a chance for redemption is harsh IMO.

 

[Howe_zat]

I'm the same age as Amir so to excuse his actions as that of a naive, impressionable child I find pretty insulting

 

[OverratedSanity]

And yeah, in all probability, Amir was a good 2-3 years older than he says in his birth certificate anyway.

 

[harsh.ag]

I'm the same age as Amir so to excuse his actions as that of a naive, impressionable child I find pretty insulting

Although I wouldn't put too fine an emphasis on it, but the security level and maturity gained through good education are very different for a developed nation and an underdeveloped one.

Also, it differs from person to person. I was quite impressionable at that age. Hell, I bought into Ayn Rand for a solid 4 months in my first year of college.

 

[r3alist]

I'm the same age as Amir so to excuse his actions as that of a naive, impressionable child I find pretty insulting

Ah.... And therefore any mistake made by a young person ever can never be made due to not knowing better.... They were all horrific blotches on humanity.
Amirdid did wrong, has done his time, now hopefully coming back... Those who see much more than this have a ridiculous level of outrage, how do they cope with the world if that's the case?

 

[Fusion]

I'm the same age as Amir so to excuse his actions as that of a naive, impressionable child I find pretty insulting

So you, and probably the majority of people your age, are not naive and impressionable. You also know right from wrong and will not cheat or do something illegal (at least on the scale of Amir's). That's good. However, do you not know anyone your age that may not be made of the same cloth? I certainly do. What should we do when they mess up? Have a zero tolerance, "they don't deserve a second chance" philosophy even after they've served their punishment? If that's how you feel about it, fair enough. As I said, I find that to be an incredibly harsh policy to impose on someone so young. If we take that view with every young person that makes the wrong choices, we would give up on a lot of people that otherwise may have been able to turn their life around.

 

[OverratedSanity]

So you, and probably the majority of people your age, are not naive and impressionable. You also know right from wrong and will not cheat or do something illegal (at least on the scale of Amir's). That's good. However, do you not know anyone your age that may not be made of the same cloth? I certainly do. What should we do when they mess up? Have a zero tolerance, "they don't deserve a second chance" philosophy even after they've served their punishment? If that's how you feel about it, fair enough. As I said, I find that to be an incredibly harsh policy to impose on someone so young. If we take that view with every young person that makes the wrong choices, we would give up on a lot of people that otherwise may have been able to turn their life around.

I saw this post from earlier in the thread and the bolded part is exactly how I feel tbh.

The poor boy Ameer arguments don't wash on any level. If he's not playing then someone else is. For all the things he misses out on someone else gets a shot. I prefer to think of the person who's missing out because that cheat is playing.

Every game before and after Ameer plays in will be sullied and the game of cricket itself is damaged. This goes way beyond one individual. If you look at the bigger picture there's only one punishment you can have - a life ban. The thought of Ameer playing again for Pakistan is just ghastly for the game, it will bring the spot fixing affair back into the spotlight. The focus will not be on the field of play. You can't underestimate the damage it will do. Personally I don't watch snooker any more since John Higgins agreed to lose some frames for a quarter of a million (he was let off with a pathetic 6 month ban in a whitewash, didn't miss any major tournaments).

This is so true. Amir is only getting this sympathy because he's incrediby talented. NOT because he's young. His age is being put forward as an excuse imo. Why should a youngster, say, Rahat Ali, who's arguably not close to as talented as Amir, but apparently is honest miss out because of this "second chance"? Would you prefer to give Amir, who made a horrendous mistake, one of the worst cricketing sins, another chance, at the expense of an honest cricketer. I certainly would not. No chance in hell.

Life ban ftw.

 

[Fusion]

I saw this post from earlier in the thread and the bolded part is exactly how I feel tbh.



This is so true. Amir is only getting this sympathy because he's incrediby talented. NOT because he's young. His age is being put forward as an excuse imo. Why should a youngster, say, Rahat Ali, who's arguably not close to as talented as Amir, but apparently is honest. Would you prefer to give Amir, who made a horrendous mistake, one of the worst cricketing sin, another chance, at the expense of an honest cricketer. I certainly would not. No chance in hell.

Life ban ftw.

I would give anyone, talented or not, a second chance after they've served their punishment. For me, age is a huge consideration here. He was young. Young people make mistakes. To then not allow them to redeem themselves is unfair to me. Consider also that as part of his punishment, Amir has had to take part in lectures where he tells other young people not to make the same mistake as him. If he comes back from his punishment and acts as a model citizen, then I have no problem having him back in the team. A life ban for the first offense is just absurd to me.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I would give anyone, talented or not, a second chance after they've served their punishment. For me, age is a huge consideration here. He was young. Young people make mistakes. To then not allow them to redeem themselves is unfair to me. Consider also that as part of his punishment, Amir has had to take part in lectures where he tells other young people not to make the same mistake as him. If he comes back from his punishment and acts as a model citizen, then I have no problem having him back in the team. A life ban for the first offense is just absurd to me.

Again, though, why would you want a cricketer who hasn't made a mistake at all and is totally clean to miss out at the expense of Amir, just to give him a second chance? It's just unfair to the honest bloke.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Also, what do you have to say about Amir lying in court? That removed any sympathy I had, atleast.

 

[smash84]

Also, what do you have to say about Amir lying in court? That removed any sympathy I had, atleast.

I feel that Amir should have been given a life ban but then I think about the bigger question of giving someone another chance. So quite torn between the two outcomes. I think I would be happier if Amir didn't return because I get a feeling that he was forced to go along with Butt and Asif's treachery.

An interesting question posed by Valer though. What punishment do you think Mark Waugh and Shane Warne should have gotten back in the mid 90s?

 

[r3alist]

I think anyone who was in amirs predicament would get my sympathy, in fact to throw some of your own sanctimony back at you i would say that's verging on the offensive to say it's purely because he was quite good.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

No one here wants As if back even though he was better than what Amir could have been.


The issue is his age. I therefore think he should be given another chance.

 

[theegyptian]

I don't really have a problem with Amir returning to cricket. Society believes in rehabilitation and second chances. But the ICC may want to think about lifetime bans against players that bring the game into serious disrepute. I think that's a viable process if the player damages cricket so badly or is perceived to be a big threat in the future to the integrity of the game and those involved in it. Whether Amir deserves that? I dunno. Probably not. The slight concern seems to be the lack of contrition in his acts since been caught.

I guess the thing that is probably hard for myself and others posting here is how different growing up in Pakistan in the last 20 years is compared to some off our upbringings. That's not something most of us can relate to. Not excusing anything that Amir, Butt or Asif did, but also it's hard for myself to completely contextualise how they arrived at that point to cheat and shame their country and cricket. So for that reason it's probably hard for myself to make any judgement about the punishment of a Pakistani player.

The thing I really don't get is the group of Pakistani support that are so looking forward to his return and fervent in their support for Amir. Regardless of his age and the pressures put on him by more senior players he was part of an incident that shamed Pakistan and its cricket. It will be an infamous moment in the history of cricket. I don't watch Pakistan these days without thinking 'are they cheating?' and all I will see when Amir is back on the pitch is the guy who cheated. That is a perception that is hard to fight.

 

[r3alist]

Asif, regrettably, and unfortunately, showed he thought he could continuously get away with what he wants.... And I really thought he could have been Pakistan's second best ever bowler.

 

[harsh.ag]

The thing I really don't get is the group of Pakistani support that are so looking forward to his return and fervent in their support for Amir. Regardless of his age and the pressures put on him by more senior players he was part of an incident that shamed Pakistan and its cricket. It will be an infamous moment in the history of cricket. I don't watch Pakistan these days without thinking 'are they cheating?' and all I will see when Amir is back on the pitch is the guy who cheated. That is a perception that is hard to fight.

Tbh, you missed the bus on this by 20 years It's much cleaner now (perhaps not in the IPL, but in internationals definitely).

 

[fredfertang]

Call me a sad and aging bleeding heart liberal if you must, but I will be delighted to see Amir back and I hope he takes shedloads of wickets ('cept against England, obviously)