Bevan vs. Hussey vs. Dhoni

[Redbacks]

Bevan is The one who has usually benefited from strong starts by the top order, particularly while chasing. His average in successful chases is 80plus but his strike rate is just 66. Shows how much time he has had to finish off matches, he just needed to see his team through most cases.

good risk management i guess.

 

[Sir Alex]

I'm interested in the consistency issue but I'd rather it explored in a way that actually makes sense.

So.... Dhoni, Bevan Hussey scores under 20 and 30 (not including not outs) and scores over 30 and 50 (including not outs)

Under 20
Dhoni - 44 innings 30.8% of his career innings
Hussey -34 innings 29.6%
Bevan - 48 innings 24.5%

Under 30
Dhoni - 59 innings 41.0%
Hussey - 42 innings 36.5%
Bevan - 71 innings 36.2%

Over 30 (includes NOs)
Bevan - 109 innings 55.6%
Hussey - 62 innings 53.9%
Dhoni - 72 innings 50%

Over 50 (includes NOs)
Dhoni - 41 innings 28.5%
Hussey - 32 innings 27.8%
Bevan - 52 innings 26.5%

Dhoni despite being the most inconsistent in regards to how often he gets out for 20/30 or under and scoring 30 or over is the most consistent in scores of 50 and over. Found this all pretty interesting tbh. Also shows how gun Bevan was.

Thanks but strike rates would've also helped. Dhoni's most scores under 30 have come if am not mistaken batting first and him unselfishly going for the slog.

 

[Sir Alex]

good risk management i guess.

Agreed. But Dhoni does it clearly much better.

 

[Ikki]

Bevan is The one who has usually benefited from strong starts by the top order, particularly while chasing. His average in successful chases is 80plus but his strike rate is just 66. Shows how much time he has had to finish off matches, he just needed to see his team through most cases.

You ever watched Bevan? His strike-rate being slower was actually irrelevant. He always made runs to win and, although taking it to the wire numerous times, withstood immense pressure when he had to and kept the runs ticking along. He just kept going and batted excellently with the tail and wouldn't give his wicket away.

 

[Sir Alex]

You ever watched Bevan? His strike-rate being slower was actually irrelevant. He always made runs to win and, although taking it to the wire numerous times, withstood immense pressure when he had to and kept the runs ticking along. He just kept going and batted excellently with the tail and wouldn't give his wicket away.

I've already stated I rate Bevan above Dhoni at the moment. But the gap between the two is narrowing rapidly. I already consider Dhoni to be the better
'chaser' but i'd like him to do something that Bevan did in wc 03.

 

[silentstriker]

When you look at the stats Dhoni fails when his team is under the pump, his average in loosing games plummets, he is fine when the team gets off to a great start but if not he fails. Hussey averages 55 in winning games and 50 in loosing games but dhonis average between winning games and loosing games drops from 81 to 27, If Dhonis team does not get a good start then you cant expect much from him,

I don't care about this thread because I don't care about ODIs, but I hope that you use the same criteria when judging Gilchrist's average in winning Tests (54) vs. his in losing Tests (27). To say Gilchrist didn't bail Australia out so many times is hilariously wrong. But your statistical interpretation would indicate that he failed when his team was under the pump.

In other words, your interpretation is false.

 

[Ikki]

I removed innings of <30* to keep more substantial innings of not-outs when they were batting rather than not-outs kept when the innings weren't substantial.

        [B] Avg    SR[/B]
[B]Bevan[/B]:   52     74
[B]Hussey[/B]:  51     87
[B]Dhoni[/B]:   49     90

If you include only those innings at 5, 6 and 7 Bevan and Hussey's figures improve whereas Dhoni never had a not-out of <30* above those positions so his figures don't change.

 

[Ikki]

I don't care about this thread because I don't care about ODIs, but I hope that you use the same criteria when judging Gilchrist's average in winning Tests (54) vs. his in losing Tests (27). To say Gilchrist didn't bail Australia out so many times is hilariously wrong. But your statistical interpretation would indicate that he failed when his team was under the pump.

In other words, your interpretation is false.

Apples and oranges. Gilchrist never played that saving role and played to give Australia runs + time. The players mentioned here are often in the position where their role is to save a game and their innings occur in more pivotal positions in the match.

Not saying I agree with Streewise's point but I think your comparison with Gilchrist is flawed.

 

[Sir Alex]

I removed innings of <30* to keep more substantial innings of not-outs when they were batting rather than not-outs kept when the innings weren't substantial.

        [B] Avg    SR[/B]
[B]Bevan[/B]:   52     74
[B]Hussey[/B]:  51     87
[B]Dhoni[/B]:   49     90

If you include only those innings at 5, 6 and 7 Bevan and Hussey's figures improve whereas Dhoni never had a not-out of <30* above those positions so his figures don't change.

Number of innings also please.

Why only 5,6 and 7? Dhoni's greatest innings came batting at no.3 and he actually finished off that match as well.

 

[Ikki]

Number of innings also please.

Why only 5,6 and 7? Dhoni's greatest innings came batting at no.3 and he actually finished off that match as well.

I included all positions. I closed the windows but they're easy to spot. Open cricinfo and tick not-outs and include 0-30. Then remove those innings from the total and that's what is left.

I said if we were to only exclude <30* innings at 5/6/7 that the other two would have even better figures. I excluded <30* from all positions, though. The only reason I did that is because people often bring about the argument that Bevan's not-outs inflate his average. As you can see, it's still very high.

EDIT: here are the stats I used:

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...0;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...0;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...0;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting

 

[vic_orthdox]

Dhoni > Bevan > Hussey

Bevan never had to deal with short stuff, which he flopped against.

None of them have to deal with short stuff, batting after the 20th over mark. It's irrelevant to the role, it's like saying that they can't deal with underarm.

Short pitched bowling with a soft ball isn't threatening, or wicket-taking. It's a method of scoring a dot through surprise, or maybe getting someone out caught on the fence to a well struck shot.

 

[Ikki]

I removed innings of <30* to keep more substantial innings of not-outs when they were batting rather than not-outs kept when the innings weren't substantial.

        [B] Avg    SR[/B]
[B]Bevan[/B]:   52     74
[B]Hussey[/B]:  51     87
[B]Dhoni[/B]:   49     90

If you include only those innings at 5, 6 and 7 Bevan and Hussey's figures improve whereas Dhoni never had a not-out of <30* above those positions so his figures don't change.

Also to maybe give a bit of context. I will put the average batting figures during the careers of said players:

         [B] Avg       SR[/B]
[B]Bevan[/B]:   27.63     72.20
[B]Hussey[/B]:  28.04	   76.90
[B]Dhoni[/B]:   28.15     77.40

 

[vic_orthdox]

I hold Bevan a little bit higher than what his stats state, because he pretty much defined a role that wasn't there beforehand, and made many people realise about how to most effectively use death overs; that the pure "slog" wasn't how it should be approached, especially in chases. The pioneer effect, as such.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Dhoni already quite high up that list....will eclipse Bevan soon..even Rhodes is in sight.

 

[honestbharani]

I hold Bevan a little bit higher than what his stats state, because he pretty much defined a role that wasn't there beforehand, and made many people realise about how to most effectively use death overs; that the pure "slog" wasn't how it should be approached, especially in chases. The pioneer effect, as such.

AWTA... Bevan > Dhoni = Hussey for me atm..

 

[vic_orthdox]

AWTA... Bevan > Dhoni = Hussey for me atm..

I'd probably agree with that, except maybe Dhoni just ahead of Hussey. Centimetres in it.

 

[honestbharani]

I'd probably agree with that, except maybe Dhoni just ahead of Hussey. Centimetres in it.

yeah.. Kinda hard to tell with both guys still playing, isn't it? BTW, based on Avara Kedavra's stats, shouldn't we all be rating Lara very high as a finisher?




Juz shows you why stats aren't the be all and end all, for me..

 

[Sir Alex]

I included all positions. I closed the windows but they're easy to spot. Open cricinfo and tick not-outs and include 0-30. Then remove those innings from the total and that's what is left.

I said if we were to only exclude <30* innings at 5/6/7 that the other two would have even better figures. I excluded <30* from all positions, though. The only reason I did that is because people often bring about the argument that Bevan's not-outs inflate his average. As you can see, it's still very high.

EDIT: here are the stats I used:

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

While I fully agree with the intention to remove inconsequential not outs, I don't agree with the arbitrary limit of 30 that you've taken.

For example - Dhoni's 29 notout from 51 balls fetched india a tough chase against england at kanpur in 08.
Also his 28 not out from just 13 balls in the first innings was what finally seperated india from west indies at margao in 05. India were 214-5 in 45 overs. Dhoni's hitting got them to 265odd, in reply to which west indies made 255 in their full compliment.

I think 20 is more appropriate.

 

[vic_orthdox]

yeah.. Kinda hard to tell with both guys still playing, isn't it? BTW, based on Avara Kedavra's stats, shouldn't we all be rating Lara very high as a finisher?




Juz shows you why stats aren't the be all and end all, for me..

Depends on the finishing role. Lara managed to get sides home, but how many of those were in the last 5 or so, and how many were easy victories? I guess another thing is that it is a bit different finishing off a game when you have been in for 30 to 40 overs. Someone coming in with 10-15 left, as Dhoni, Hussey and Bevan regularly do batting at 5/6/7 is a very different skill.

Talking about Briza, I remember one game years ago (about 1996, I reckon) where the required run rate for the Windies got about 9 an over with over 10 overs left. Back in those days, no-one won from there, but Lara went nuts and got 80-odd to get his side home.

 

[Sir Alex]

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Dhoni already quite high up that list....will eclipse Bevan soon..even Rhodes is in sight.

The list after removing largely inconsequential not outs (scores less than 20)

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...1;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting