Best of The Second Tier

[weldone]

I'd say India and West Indies are the best of the second tier sides atm.

Isn't West Indies being better than Australia a big call ATM? I understand Bravo, Edwards and Bishoo are promising and they are in the right direction...

 

[Burgey]

Isn't West Indies being better than Australia a big call ATM? I understand Bravo, Edwards and Bishoo are promising and they are in the right direction...

If West Indies are a tier above Australia that would put India about fourth or fifth tier wouldn't it?

 

[weldone]

If West Indies are a tier above Australia that would put India about fourth or fifth tier wouldn't it?

Yes, because Australia has won a series against India at home...

 

[TNT]

So, do everyone in CW agree on the first tier while we are moving onto the second tier?

Border was quite clearly a better batsman than Hutton if you listen to the experts.

 

[Burgey]

Yes, because Australia has won a series against India at home...

No, because India could barely beat Zimbabwe away.

Don't be so sensitive babeh.

 

[weldone]

No, because India could barely beat Zimbabwe away.

Don't be so sensitive babeh.

Yes, because there are many countries where Australia has won an away series recently and India has visited recently and hasn't won.

Oh I get it, drawing a home series with New Zealand might help. OK we'll work hard...

 

[Spark]

Alright, that'll do.

 

[Burgey]

Yes, because there are many countries where Australia has won an away series recently and India has visited recently and hasn't won.

Oh I get it, drawing a home series with New Zealand might help. OK we'll work hard...

Mate the way India's going they'd battle to get off a plane without hurting themselves or opening up the first presser with "Wait til we get you guys back home on a dust bowl". Anyway, let's hope they compete in Adelaide. Conditions should suit.

If they don't, we'll no doubt hear about it.

 

[vic_orthdox]

It's been asked. Please.

 

[Eds]

We're really talking about the Fourth Tier IMO.

1: Bradman.
2: Daylight.
3: Sobers, Hammond, Hutton, Hobbs etc.

 

[weldone]

Mate the way India's going they'd battle to get off a plane without hurting themselves or opening up the first presser with "Wait til we get you guys back home on a dust bowl". Anyway, let's hope they compete in Adelaide. Conditions should suit.

If they don't, we'll no doubt hear about it.

Momentum shouldn't get any points, mate. If New Zealand keep on improving for next 2 years the way they are they'll be the no. 1 side. Momentum carries a big 'if'. Talk about past and present, don't predict future while ranking teams. Australia is at par with India at best ATM based on results in the last few years.

 

[kyear2]

So how many tiers are there? Are they equal size?

Trying not to decide that beforehand, I get two top tiers of about 15 each...

Tier 1 (in order of nationality before anyone gets upset) :

Bradman, Chappell, Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Hammond, Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Pollock, Richards B, Kallis, Sobers, Headley, Richards V, Lara, Weekes, Walcott

Next :

Harvey, Border, Waugh S, Ponting, Ponsford, McCabe, Barrington, Compton, Merchant, Dravid, Javed M, Nourse, Sangakkara, Worrell, Greenidge

I can live with that, if I were to go to 15 that is more or less the 15 I would choose. In your estimation though, who is better Weekes or Pollock?

 

[Burgey]

Momentum shouldn't get any points, mate. If New Zealand keep on improving for next 2 years the way they are they'll be the no. 1 side. Momentum carries a big 'if'. Talk about past and present, don't predict future while ranking teams. Australia is at par with India at best ATM based on results in the last few years.

Not til you get bowlers.

 

[Spark]

Enough.

 

[Black_Warrior]

They are just out side of the list of truely elite batsmen, the Bradmans, Sobers, Hammonds ect, but from a list comprising Everton Weekes, Denis Compton, Graeme Pollock, Javed Miandad and Neil Harvey was the best of the rest.

Wow Pollock in second tier? Surely he is better than Compton and Miandad? I the first time I came across the name Graeme Pollock was in a piece that said that if there was anyone would could touch Bradman, it would have been this fellow.


Edit:
Sorry I just read your last post on Page 1 where you explained this.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Isn't West Indies being better than Australia a big call ATM? I understand Bravo, Edwards and Bishoo are promising and they are in the right direction...

If West Indies are a tier above Australia that would put India about fourth or fifth tier wouldn't it?

 

[weldone]

Wow Pollock in second tier? Surely he is better than Compton and Miandad? I the first time I came across the name Graeme Pollock was in a piece that said that if there was anyone would could touch Bradman, it would have been this fellow.

I have read about 30 pieces on 30 different batsmen saying the exact same thing (or calling them 2nd best after Bradman)

 

[Burgey]

Enough.

Will we see this strict interpretation of keeping threads on track come 11.30am AEDT tomorrow?

 

[ankitj]

Then ignore the tiers, dont know how many historians rated Pollock higher than Headley, but sure you wouldn't find many. As one of the sourses I constantly cite, when Cricinfo made their all time selections, Headley missed the first team by one point, and Pollock was behind in order Bradman, Sobers, Tendulkar, Richards, Headley, Lara, Hammond and Chappell, and that was just the middle order batsmen. Headley carried his team on his back when the West Indies were new to test cricket and toured and dominated as few has before or after. Pollock played on much stronger teams, not saying Pollock wasn't great, I have him in the top 10 of all time of middle order batsmen, not a slight. Don't think being compared to Everton Weekes, Javed Miandad or Denis Compton is an awful thing.

Well, ESPN's legends of cricket had Pollock at #15 and Headley at #18. The Wisden all time batsmen ranking had Pollock at #17 and Headley at #19. A fair few have Pollock in their first ATXI (tried searching for a link I had read once before but no luck). Bradman classed Pollock alongside Sobers as one of the two best left handed batsmen of all time.

All that aside, what is more important is that no one spoke of Pollock in anything but superlative terms. So to put him in tier 2 seems unfair to me except on the basis of not having played too many matches (not his fault, but that's the way some people see). But then on that basis Headley would also be disqualified. Hence the question.

Same must be said of Barry Richards. No one thought of him as a level below even Viv Rchards but often is not mentioned in the league of ATGs because he played only 4 tests and fair enough to that.

 

[Prince EWS]

All that aside, what is more important is that no one spoke of Pollock in anything but superlative terms. So to put him in second tier 2 seems unfair to me except on the basis of not having played too many matches (not his fault, but that's the way some people see). But then on that basis Headley would also be disqualified. Hence the question.

Headley played few matches in an era where playing few matches was common, though. His Test career spanned across 25 years and he properly demonstrated his longevity. It's unfortunate Pollock didn't play more cricket, but I'd argue Headley did actually play a lot of cricket as were the standards of his time for his country. That's why Headley rates really highly for me and Pollock doesn't. Well that and the fact that Headley played in a much more bowler-friendly era, but lets face it neither of them did anything but absolute gun it in their 20 odd Tests each regardless - it's just a matter of how much 20 odd Tests counts for in each case, and IMO it counts for a lot more in Headley's.