• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Best After The Don

Best After the Don


  • Total voters
    90
  • Poll closed .

the big bambino

International Captain
Conveniently forgetting Hadlee, Marshall, Roberts, Ambrose, Walsh, Garner, Holding and McGrath. What a champ!
Giving up on Wasin Waqar Akhtar Donald Pollock Devilliers Ntini Flintoff Harmison Gough Hoggard and Jones already are we? :laugh:

I'll include NZ too if you like. And Sri Lanka if you want. :ph34r: Even with Chucky included. But suely comparing one set of bowlers to 3 modern sets of bowlers from 3 countries is enough don't you think? A comparison with the McGrath/Warne Aussies will follow. Again you'll be unpleasantly surprised. :thumbsup:
 
Last edited:

the big bambino

International Captain
Do you honestly belive that the bowlers that Bradman (and Hammond and Headley as well) were better than the ones faced by Sobers, Chappell, Richards, Tendulkar, Lara or even Hutton? Or even comparable?

Do you belive that the LBW rule changes, the increase of stump size, increase of games played and overall level of competition and fielding (and importantly catching) and playing in more than two contries wouldn't have made a difference to his early career numbers.

The fact that the only two coutries that he scored over 100 againts had poor attacks and were not to the level of England, his own team's or even the W.I's of that era. That part of the difference in average between Bradman and Headley is partially explained that apart from both playing againts England, Headley had to face Australia's attack and Grimmett and Ironmonger and Bradman got India and South Africa.
That the closest attack that Bradman faced to a modern attack was Body line and he averaged 55, and that attack was devised by Jaradine because he though the Don was somewhat suspect to short pitched fast bowling and that the bolwers of body line cannot be compared to Lillle or Thompson, or Lindwall and Miller far less the 70's quartet or Marshall, Garner and Holding. He struggled initiall againts the W.I attack of Martindale and Constantine also being dropped before scoring (a very good) his first of only two hundreds in the series. The man was great and the best, he wasn't god.
To your 1st paragraph the answer is yes. Australia's ashes batting ave in the 30s was the 2nd lowest when you remove Bradman's runs. This is fair as it brings back that era its true standard so that you can then tell how much he distorted the average. By about 6 runs a wicket by his own efforts in fact.

The rest of your post is drivel as it is based on the distortion.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
My position is that I won't accept an explanation which does not show why the averages of his teammates were completely normal during this time and not in the high 50s (apart from Barnes and he just played 13 tests).
Exactly. It is one of the myths die hard Bradman haters adhere to which I'll hit out of the ball park in the Bradman effect thread. There's alot of them and I've only drafted the post so far but will do it by easter if I have the time. I'll then run a comparison with the Pak attacks led by Waqar and Akram (88-2000), the SA attack led by Donald and Pollock (93-2006), The English led By Harmi, Flintoff, Jones, Hoggard and Gough(98-2009) and then the Aussies of the Warne McGrath era (88-2000). As a sneak peak I can tell you the English attack of 27-39 out performs the 1st 3 without Bradman's runs deducted They are about equal when compared to the modern Aussies.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Yeah, I have trouble rating bowler V batsman as if it was an individual contest. It just never is, in cricket.. There are way too many factors to be able to boil it down to such simplified levels. Very very rarely it is true.. Like SL Vs any top side in the 2000s esp in SL could well be thought of as Murali Vs that side but the flip side to that argument is the series against India when Mendis debuted.. So cricket is perhaps one of the most complex games to judge based on the pure stats that are available, simply because the game is affected by so many factors that it can never really be boiled down to a number V number for player comparisons assuming all other factors were the same. They just never are.
Well said. And you have picked the perfect analogy (highlighted). I believe figures mean alot. However not on bald reading when they can be misleading. They explain all the consequences a player had to face while compiling them.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Leg theory never really ended, To varying degrees W.I tried it vs Hammond, Lindwall and Miller used it vs Weekes, Lillee and Thompson vs the W.I in '75 and the W.I used it pretty well vs Bedi's team when they famously declared in both innings.
Rubbish as you know. You are conflating leg theory with bodyline to sustain a weak argument. Some people I know would be ashamed of such an attempt of sophistry. Some aren't though.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
If anything, Bodyline highlights how completely and utterly brave Bradman was. And the same could be said of most cricketers in the pre-helmet era. The actual act of going to the middle to face something that hostile and quick, aimed at your body and your head, is staggeringly brave.

Fred, in terms of "taking on" Bodyline the way McCabe did, do you think there was much benefit in doing that during that series? I know McCabe managed it in that incredible innings he played, but really the odds were highly in favour of the batsman being hit and killed, or hitting it to one of the many fielders on the leg-side. If a batsman is bowled relentless quick bouncers over and over again, regardless of how quick his eyes or hands are, he WILL get hit, eventually. And the stakes (pre-helmet) were bloody high.
A few of the England players said afterwards that McCabe's assault almost put an end to leg theory - there was a perception that if McCabe could do that to it that Bradman would do the same, but I've certainly never read anything that suggested Jardine was deflected in any way from pursuing the tactic nor that he had any doubt that it would take some of the sting out of Bradman

As to whether there was any benefit to be had I suspect not in terms of the way the series panned out, but it has given us one of the game's great stories. I know the stattos will tell you different, and despite being English I'm as big a fan as McCabe has in the 21st century, but despite my bias I will always believe that 187* is one of the greatest innings ever played.

And it did show there was a successful way of playing Bodyline, and Bradman and then Jardine himself were to demonstrate two more, but there was undoubtedly a great risk of injury the McCabe way. There was less risk for Jardine, and virtually none for Bradman, but that doesn't detract from Bradman's bravery - just because he didn't do a Ponsford and let the ball hit him doesn't make him a coward. He could have just been selfish and swayed out of the way, and scored a couple of hundred runs in the series without getting an average 'cos he was never actually dismissed - but he didn't - he gambled with his wicket to try and help his team and while I do in a lot ways subscribe to the O'Reilly/Fingleton "Bradman was a bit of a ****" school of thought, I've always thought kudos to him for the way he took Jardine on
 

the big bambino

International Captain
The thing about the accusation that DGB was a coward is that it doesn't square with the no of runs he made and balls he faced in that series. A coward doesn't last long at the crease and his form would have had him dropped before a judgment could be made of his character. Even then poor form doesn't equate to cowardice. Just that it is impossible to ave 56 if you weren't brave.

While I believe there were ways to play bodyline they were limited. McCabe's defiance was against the odds, Bradman's was unique to his skill and Jardine benefitted from slow wicket. None of the methods justified an argument for its retention and I think it was fair the rules changed to prevent its reoccurence.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
It isn't about particular bowler Vs particular batsman. To me, Aussie Test attack was great in 90s and 2000s mainly because of McGrath. Without him, it was just half the attack, imo. It is interesting to see the Aussie team performance stats with and without McGrath (while McGrath was still active). With McGrath, they lost 3 Test series (excluding the one-off Test against India in 96) from 94 to 2007, all 3 series losses came in the sub-continent. Of these 3 losses, 2 of them were very closely fought. Aussie Win-Loss ratio, excluding Zimb and Bang, was about 80-19 with McGrath in the team (about 4+ wins to 1 loss). Without McGrath, their Win-Loss ratio, excluding Zimb and Bdesh, collapses to 10-8, during the same era. Even in Ashes 2005, they did not lose a single test in which McGrath played (and lost both which he missed).

Even when Warne was banned for a year in 2003, Aus did not lose a single Test series. And their W/L record during entire Warne era, doesn't change as drastically just counting those matches when Warne was absent.

During McGrath's time, if averages of Tendulkar/Dravid/Laxman against Aus collapse from 92/84/67 (in McGrath's absence) to 36/31/44 respectively (in McGrath's presence), then McGrath's presence definitely has a huge impact imo. The difference is drastic and very apparent to me.

And very importantly, all these three batsmen have played fair share of innings under both circumstances (with and without McGrath in the Aus line-up, at home and away) during McGrath's time. Tendulkar, for example, played 18 innings against Aus with McGrath (12 at home, 6 away) and 12 innings against Aus without McGrath (5 at home, 7 away) in this period.

Let me ask you your opinion instead, what do you think was the main reason for such a big difference in their batting stats? If anything, they had a lot more "home-advantage" while playing McGrath, and more batting-friendly conditions too (never faced McGrath at WACA or Gabba). Their stats should have been the other way around.

Yes, there might have been other factors which caused their stats to suffer so much in McGrath's presence, but to me McGrath's presence itself was an undeniable factor.

Again, the question isn't about a particular batsman against a particular bowler at all, it is about a particular batsman's performance against a decent attack imo (Aus without McGrath), as compared to his performance against a great attack imo (Aus with McGrath).

To a lesser extent, above could be said about Donald and RSA attack of Donald's time also.
I am not discounting this PoV at all, FWIW.. I think McGrath played a huge role in that Aussie attack and batsmen did have it easy when he wasn't around than when he was, sometimes the difference was drastic as the stats with the INdian batsmen shows.. But my point was that there is no real way to try and boil down cricket to a very basic Batsman A Vs Bowler B type argument without acknowledging the fact that a huge number of variable and mostly unquantifiable influences factor into how such contests go.
 

abmk

State 12th Man
It isn't about particular bowler Vs particular batsman. To me, Aussie Test attack was great in 90s and 2000s mainly because of McGrath. Without him, it was just half the attack, imo. It is interesting to see the Aussie team performance stats with and without McGrath (while McGrath was still active). With McGrath, they lost 3 Test series (excluding the one-off Test against India in 96) from 94 to 2007, all 3 series losses came in the sub-continent. Of these 3 losses, 2 of them were very closely fought. Aussie Win-Loss ratio, excluding Zimb and Bang, was about 80-19 with McGrath in the team (about 4+ wins to 1 loss). Without McGrath, their Win-Loss ratio, excluding Zimb and Bdesh, collapses to 10-8, during the same era. Even in Ashes 2005, they did not lose a single test in which McGrath played (and lost both which he missed).

Even when Warne was banned for a year in 2003, Aus did not lose a single Test series. And their W/L record during entire Warne era, doesn't change as drastically just counting those matches when Warne was absent.

During McGrath's time, if averages of Tendulkar/Dravid/Laxman against Aus collapse from 92/84/67 (in McGrath's absence) to 36/31/44 respectively (in McGrath's presence), then McGrath's presence definitely has a huge impact imo. The difference is drastic and very apparent to me.

And very importantly, all these three batsmen have played fair share of innings under both circumstances (with and without McGrath in the Aus line-up, at home and away) during McGrath's time. Tendulkar, for example, played 18 innings against Aus with McGrath (12 at home, 6 away) and 12 innings against Aus without McGrath (5 at home, 7 away) in this period.

Let me ask you your opinion instead, what do you think was the main reason for such a big difference in their batting stats? If anything, they had a lot more "home-advantage" while playing McGrath, and more batting-friendly conditions too (never faced McGrath at WACA or Gabba). Their stats should have been the other way around.

Yes, there might have been other factors which caused their stats to suffer so much in McGrath's presence, but to me McGrath's presence itself was an undeniable factor.

Again, the question isn't about a particular batsman against a particular bowler at all, it is about a particular batsman's performance against a decent attack imo (Aus without McGrath), as compared to his performance against a great attack imo (Aus with McGrath).

To a lesser extent, above could be said about Donald and RSA attack of Donald's time also.
and this doesn't include circumstances like :

sachin getting a couple of dubious decisions in the 99 series , a wrong one in 2001 ( no-ball of gillespie ) and a freak catch of the bowling of Mark Waugh , does it ?

he was far better than the avgs of 45+ and 50+ suggest in those 2 series .....

also, he just came off a serious tennis elbow injury in the 2004 series ....... though the series avg may be just ~20, he set the tone for the lone Indian win at mumbai with an excellent 55 on a massively deteriorating wicket ...

the only other test where mcgrath played was in delhi in 96, where sachin got out to a spinner in the first innings (mcintyre ? ) ....in the second innings, India needed only 58 ...he got out to mcgrath, but that wasn't really of much significance, was it ?

laxman's 2001 series had mcgrath had his peak ....we all know how good he was in that series, don't we ? the 99 series, the Sydney one was one brilliant innings ....

now , dravid did struggle vs mcgrath ( & warne ) , but he did play two very fine innings - that 180 and then the 81 in the next test ...

As far as Ashes 2005 goes, well, he'd have made a difference with the ball, but you are forgetting that Aus could've won the 2nd test without Mcgrath and lost the 3rd test with him being there .....

Also, would've loved to see warne not being there, mcgrath being there and martyn/lehmann not being in that good form vs SL in 2004 ....... how would Aus have done in SL then ?

mind you , I do think mcgrath overall was a bit more of a threat than warne, but you are exaggerating his effect here ...

------

As far as SA is concerned, what about Sachin's record vs Steyn/Morkel ... he had 2 awesome series - one in India and one in SA ....
 
Last edited:

abmk

State 12th Man
Exactly. It is one of the myths die hard Bradman haters adhere to which I'll hit out of the ball park in the Bradman effect thread. There's alot of them and I've only drafted the post so far but will do it by easter if I have the time. I'll then run a comparison with the Pak attacks led by Waqar and Akram (88-2000), the SA attack led by Donald and Pollock (93-2006), The English led By Harmi, Flintoff, Jones, Hoggard and Gough(98-2009) and then the Aussies of the Warne McGrath era (88-2000). As a sneak peak I can tell you the English attack of 27-39 out performs the 1st 3 without Bradman's runs deducted They are about equal when compared to the modern Aussies.
really ?

Aus/WI/Pak/SA attacks of those times were better than the English attacks from 27-39 , without a question

what you are missing is that apart from the England and Aussie batting lineups and to a lesser extent SA, the other teams - NZ, India, WI had pretty weak batting lineups ......the stats of the the England bowlers benefited quite a bit from that

from 27 to 39, they played 36 out of their 90 matches vs those 3 teams ....so its not an insignificant portion ......they avg'ed 25.37 in those matches ...

vs overall average of 30.24 in 90 tests
 
Last edited:

the big bambino

International Captain
I'm just looking at the records now. NZ and Pak in the 90s did about as badly. Mid 20s or thereabouts against SA, Aus, Pak (when applicable) and WI. Ditto SL. And Eng weren't alot better. Maybe high 20s. An don't forget the gimmes against BD and Zim. In fact after 1993 the WI had just abt lost all their great bats apart from Lara and they became a weak shadow of the batting side they once were. The averaged only 21 against the Saffers and not much better against the others.

The difference is that the Pak, Aus and SA attacks of the modern era played weaker sides more often than did the Aus and Eng teams of the 27-39 era. Which means you assertion is directly contradicted by the facts. This is something that I find often with people who believe the modern attacks are better "without question". They just believe it without bothering to do the research. Almost invariably a quick check on the stats proves their "convictions" wrong.
 

abmk

State 12th Man
I'm just looking at the records now. NZ and Pak in the 90s did about as badly. Mid 20s or thereabouts against SA, Aus, Pak (when applicable) and WI. Ditto SL. And Eng weren't alot better. Maybe high 20s. An don't forget the gimmes against BD and Zim. In fact after 1993 the WI had just abt lost all their great bats apart from Lara and they became a weak shadow of the batting side they once were. The averaged only 21 against the Saffers and not much better against the others.

The difference is that the Pak, Aus and SA attacks of the modern era played weaker sides more often than did the Aus and Eng teams of the 27-39 era. Which means you assertion is directly contradicted by the facts. This is something that I find often with people who believe the modern attacks are better "without question". They just believe it without bothering to do the research. Almost invariably a quick check on the stats proves their "convictions" wrong.
nope, Pakistan's batting avg overall in the 90s was ~31 .. hardly anything to sneeze at ..

new zealand's batting avg overall in the 90s was ~30

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo


all of WI, India and NZ had batting averages of around 25 overall from 28-39 .....

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

stats don't contradict what I say at all ....

the weakest side of the 90s, zimbabwe , had a slightly better avg than all of NZ,Ind & WI from 28-39 ......

WI still had chanderpaul, richardson, gayle etc ... though their batting did weaken considerably ....still what great depth did their batting in late 20s and 30s have ?

I'm not saying all modern attacks are better than the Eng one in 27-39 ...just that the Aus/Pak/WI/SA ones were .....
 
Last edited:

coolkuna

Cricket Spectator
As far as Ashes 2005 goes, well, he'd have made a difference with the ball, but you are forgetting that Aus could've won the 2nd test without Mcgrath and lost the 3rd test with him being there .....
Please get your facts right first. The 3rd Test in Ashes 2005 was a draw. Aussies never lost a single Test in that 2005 Ashes series when McGrath was playing.

Now, I am not saying McGrath was a superman and Aussies won each and every Test when he bowled. Of course not. But, to me, as far as Aus bowling is concerned, there is just no denying that he was the deal-breaker, especially against India where Warne wasn't a threat at all. He was a huge psychological boost to his captain, and consequently to rest of the players.

It is not just about McGrath, any explosive fast bowler who can change the outcome of a match in a single spell would do that to any captain. McGrath, like Ambrose and Marshall before him, was explosive as well as consistent.

To give you an example, when Tendulkar walked out to open in 1999 World Cup ODI match, Steve Waugh was quite surprisingly happy and relieved. Waugh himself told that in the interview after the match.

Considering Aus history with Tendulkar up until that point, Waugh should have been scared and demoralized. This was a do-or-die match for both Australia and India. Both came in at the bottom of their tables. Coming into the match Tendulkar had repeatedly mangled the Aussies for some time (Sharjah Desert Storm, Asia Cup etc.) every time they played each other in the past seasons. A string of blazing, dominating centuries and 50s. Batting totals of 280-300 did not seem enough to defend for Australia when he was there.

But Waugh knew this match was different. All those previous knocks had come in the absence of McGrath. As Waugh himself said, Tendulkar opening would give McGrath a chance to go at Tendulkar with the new ball after a long time. McGrath was at his absolute peak of his powers then.

McGrath's presence gave that confidence to Waugh.

In an astonishing display of great fast bowling (one of the 2 best fast bowling spells I have seen in ODI cricket), McGrath broke the back of Indian batting line-up. In his first 3 overs, he sent back Tendulkar, Dravid and Azhar for a combined total of 5 runs. McGrath basically finished the match in his first 3 overs.

I am not implying that Indian batsmen were sissies against McGrath. I have seen enough of them and have great respect for them. Tendulkar's perfect technique, balance, unflappable attitude and his genius in his ability to time the ball while playing so close to his body stands out to any observer. Dravid was magnificent in his performance against Allan Donald & Co. in 1996 South African series. He seemed comfortable even on the green Durban wicket where India was shot out for a total of 100 and 66 in each innings. He got a rough decision in the first innings of that match. Laxman's 2001 series, especially his crucial, series-deciding 50 in the fourth innings of the last Test, is well known.

and this doesn't include circumstances like :

sachin getting a couple of dubious decisions in the 99 series , a wrong one in 2001 ( no-ball of gillespie ) and a freak

catch of the bowling of Mark Waugh , does it ?

he was far better than the avgs of 45+ and 50+ suggest in those 2 series .....

also, he just came off a serious tennis elbow injury in the 2004 series ....... though the series avg may be just ~20, he

set the tone for the lone Indian win at mumbai with an excellent 55 on a massively deteriorating wicket ...

the only other test where mcgrath played was in delhi in 96, where sachin got out to a spinner in the first innings

(mcintyre ? ) ....in the second innings, India needed only 58 ...he got out to mcgrath, but that wasn't really of much

significance, was it ?

laxman's 2001 series had mcgrath had his peak ....we all know how good he was in that series, don't we ? the 99 series, the

Sydney one was one brilliant innings ....

now , dravid did struggle vs mcgrath ( & warne ) , but he did play two very fine innings - that 180 and then the 81 in the

next test ...
This is like sour grapes. If we give such reasoning, we can do this for every batsman from Bradman to Richards to Lara for weaknesses or anomalies in their records. While I can give plenty and plenty of valid reasons for Richards and Lara, Bradman would be at a huge disadvantage because none of us have observed how many bad decisions he got or how many injuries he carried while playing or what the situation of a match was when he got out. More on this later...
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
To your 1st paragraph the answer is yes. Australia's ashes batting ave in the 30s was the 2nd lowest when you remove Bradman's runs. This is fair as it brings back that era its true standard so that you can then tell how much he distorted the average. By about 6 runs a wicket by his own efforts in fact.

The rest of your post is drivel as it is based on the distortion.
The only drivel is that you honestly belive that Allen and Voce were as good as Lindwall, Miller, Trueman, Davidson, Snow, Imran, Mahmood, Waqar, Wasim, Hadlee, Hall, Roberts, Holding, Croft, Garner, Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Donald Steyn, Pollock ect. because you are the only peron who does.
And this doesn't even factor in the ONLY teams that Bradman averaged over a hundred againts, India and South Africa who were minnows of the order of Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, there is a reason that no one rates Moyo higher than Viv even with his great year as it was primarily scored againts very weak attacks and minnows. When Weekes and Walcott plundered India it is used againts them (and they had Lindwall, Miller and Trueman to contend with otherwise), for Bradman it is the basis of his legend, because without them he would not have averaged near 100. Some use it againts Viv that he never faced an attack quite like his own, but Bradman never faced his own bowlers either who were the four best bowlers of his era in O'reilly, Grimmett, Lindwall and Miller.
I would give you Larwood who was only entering his true prime years when he was forced out of the game for practicing a form of bowling that was part of the game until the bouncer rule in the '90's (minus the field placings of course) and he had it pretty hard with the unhelpful pitches and the existing LBW rules as noted in his Wisden Obituary
"Around 5ft 8ins, but strongly-built with wide shoulders and long arms, he had a smooth, rhythmic approach and a high arm action. His speed was truly exceptional, and because of his lack of height, his bouncer tended to skid, veering into the ribs rather than wastefully over the head. The schoolboy Ray Lindwall drew upon this action after watching through the pickets at the SCG in 1932-33. In more recent times, the Pakistan express bowler Waqar Younis has had much of Larwood's movement about his run-up and delivery. Larwood's stock ball snapped in from the off, and in days when leg-before dismissals could be granted only from balls that pitched between wicket and wicket, he was denied many a dismissal that would have been given to succeeding generations of bowlers"
Do you understand how difficult is is for a right hand fast bowler to consistently get LBW decisions if they have to pitch in line with the stumps, which is why the Leg spinners and LH othrodox spinners were more effective than the fast bowlers and why combined with the pitches Australia had a derth of fast bolwers until the end of WW2.

How can anyone belive that a combination of all of these factors would not have contributed to an inflated average is lunacy, no one is suggesting that it would be cut in half, but it must have contributed, why is it so hard to see or admit that.
Protected by two great openers, strong batting behind him, for the most part relatively weak attacks except for a couple of series, flat pitches, favorable rules which were changed because of him and being able to gourge on some really weak teams didn't hurt either. He averaged 74 vs Martindale and Constantine, yet is suggested he would have averaged 100 vs the W.I in 83/84 can't buy it.
Once again not saying that his average would have beeen cut in half but to say if he played in a different era againts better bowlers and teams that his average would have stayed the same is what is drivel.
 

abmk

State 12th Man
Please get your facts right first. The 3rd Test in Ashes 2005 was a draw. Aussies never lost a single Test in that 2005 Ashes series when McGrath was playing.
read again ...... I said Aus could've won the 2nd test without Mcgrath and lost the 3rd even with Mcgrath ....... ... both were the thinnest of margins ...

that could've was for both the statements ..... .

Now, I am not saying McGrath was a superman and Aussies won each and every Test when he bowled. Of course not. But, to me, as far as Aus bowling is concerned, there is just no denying that he was the deal-breaker, especially against India where Warne wasn't a threat at all. He was a huge psychological boost to his captain, and consequently to rest of the players.

It is not just about McGrath, any explosive fast bowler who can change the outcome of a match in a single spell would do that to any captain. McGrath, like Ambrose and Marshall before him, was explosive as well as consistent.

To give you an example, when Tendulkar walked out to open in 1999 World Cup ODI match, Steve Waugh was quite surprisingly happy and relieved. Waugh himself told that in the interview after the match.

Considering Aus history with Tendulkar up until that point, Waugh should have been scared and demoralized. This was a do-or-die match for both Australia and India. Both came in at the bottom of their tables. Coming into the match Tendulkar had repeatedly mangled the Aussies for some time (Sharjah Desert Storm, Asia Cup etc.) every time they played each other in the past seasons. A string of blazing, dominating centuries and 50s. Batting totals of 280-300 did not seem enough to defend for Australia when he was there.

But Waugh knew this match was different. All those previous knocks had come in the absence of McGrath. As Waugh himself said, Tendulkar opening would give McGrath a chance to go at Tendulkar with the new ball after a long time. McGrath was at his absolute peak of his powers then.

McGrath's presence gave that confidence to Waugh.

In an astonishing display of great fast bowling (one of the 2 best fast bowling spells I have seen in ODI cricket), McGrath broke the back of Indian batting line-up. In his first 3 overs, he sent back Tendulkar, Dravid and Azhar for a combined total of 5 runs. McGrath basically finished the match in his first 3 overs.
agree that was an amazing spell of bowling from Mcgrath , but one thing to be remembered is that Sachin wasn't in that good form in that world cup

I already said that I do consider Mcgrath to be more of a threat than Warne overall , but the difference isn't that big as you are making it out to be overall ...

against India though, obviously no question that Mcgrath was the far greater threat ... yet Indian batsmen deserve quite a bit of credit for neutralizing warne so effectively ....

one thing you forget to mention is the effect Jason Gillespie had ..in the 2001 and 2004 series in India combined, he was really not any lesser than mcgrath and was bowling darn well in both .....

I am not implying that Indian batsmen were sissies against McGrath. I have seen enough of them and have great respect for them. Tendulkar's perfect technique, balance, unflappable attitude and his genius in his ability to time the ball while playing so close to his body stands out to any observer. Dravid was magnificent in his performance against Allan Donald & Co. in 1996 South African series. He seemed comfortable even on the green Durban wicket where India was shot out for a total of 100 and 66 in each innings. He got a rough decision in the first innings of that match. Laxman's 2001 series, especially his crucial, series-deciding 50 in the fourth innings of the last Test, is well known.
never said you implied that Indian batsmen were sissies against Mcgrath ...actually its Laxman's 281 that is famous though his 50 in the final innings was a pretty good one as well ...


This is like sour grapes. If we give such reasoning, we can do this for every batsman from Bradman to Richards to Lara for weaknesses or anomalies in their records. While I can give plenty and plenty of valid reasons for Richards and Lara, Bradman would be at a huge disadvantage because none of us have observed how many bad decisions he got or how many injuries he carried while playing or what the situation of a match was when he got out. More on this later...
I pointed out those because the sample size in this case is not that big and even 2-3 innings , bad decisions can alter 'averages' significantly. I think most of those who watched those 2 series - 99 and 2001 would tell you that Sachin played quite a bit better than the averages of 45+ and 50+ suggest ....

wouldn't be pointing these out in case the sample size was much larger as many times things even out in cricket over a period of time and over larger samples ....
 
Last edited:

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
1) You are not taking into account the fact that nobody before or after the Don (and his teammates in that series) had to encounter bodyline tactics, because of the rule that was put in place limiting the number of fielders behind square on the leg side to 2, not to mention that it became a taboo. So how do you know that other ATG batsmen would not have had a similar drop in their batting average if such a tactic was used against them?
Yes, Jardine averaged 100 when playing bodyline IIRC against WI

2) If Bradman's average was inflated by weak attacks, would you say the fellow batsmen in his team also had inflated averages? How much would you want to lower the averages of Ponsford (48), Woodfull (46), Barnes (63), Hassett (46), McCabe (48) to "normalize" them? Perhaps they were the kind of batsmen who "actually" would have just averaged in the high 30s, right?
Difficult to say. May be the relationship is not linear.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
Giving up on Wasin Waqar Akhtar Donald Pollock Devilliers Ntini Flintoff Harmison Gough Hoggard and Jones already are we? :laugh:

I'll include NZ too if you like. And Sri Lanka if you want. :ph34r: Even with Chucky included. But suely comparing one set of bowlers to 3 modern sets of bowlers from 3 countries is enough don't you think? A comparison with the McGrath/Warne Aussies will follow. Again you'll be unpleasantly surprised. :thumbsup:
Complete trash. I've already proven that if Bradman was replaced by a batsman who average 50, the bowlers averages will drop down by 0.9 runs . But that doesn't make Voce's average (27.88) even close to that of Marshall's, Hadlee's, Garner's or McGrath's (sub 22).

You may run circles showing a particular bowler averaged x amount more because of Bradman. But to balance out there should always be bowlers who benefited from Bradman's presence. Finally it has to come down to 1.8% of innings at extra average of 50 argument.
 
I think it is reasonable to say that Bradman's average would have dropped a little if he had played bowlers of the quality of Wasim, Waqar, McGrath, Pollock. Steyn, Donald and co under modern day lbw rules and fielding/umpiring standards. He would still be the best batsman ever but wouldn't average 99 as he did...maybe 65 or 70. On an unrelated note, I have always had a problem with the peers argument. Steyn is by far the best bowler today, overall record being considered. That doesn't automatically make him better than Waqar or Ambrose or Donald just because these guys were never comfortably ahead of their peers like Steyn is.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Steyn is by far the best bowler today, overall record being considered. That doesn't automatically make him better than Waqar or Ambrose or Donald just because these guys were never comfortably ahead of their peers like Steyn is.
Exactly. Which is why the "best of his generation" argument is pretty pointless.
 

Top