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Best After The Don

Best After the Don


  • Total voters
    90
  • Poll closed .

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
I think it is reasonable to say that Bradman's average would have dropped a little if he had played bowlers of the quality of Wasim, Waqar, McGrath, Pollock. Steyn, Donald and co under modern day lbw rules and fielding/umpiring standards. He would still be the best batsman ever but wouldn't average 99 as he did...maybe 65 or 70. On an unrelated note, I have always had a problem with the peers argument. Steyn is by far the best bowler today, overall record being considered. That doesn't automatically make him better than Waqar or Ambrose or Donald just because these guys were never comfortably ahead of their peers like Steyn is.
That's not a little drop - that's massive, and is actually more insulting to the likes of Hammond, Sutcliffe, Headley, Hutton, Compton et al who "only" averaged 50-60 in those times. What would their average have come down to?
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
When Weekes and Walcott plundered India it is used againts them (and they had Lindwall, Miller and Trueman to contend with otherwise), for Bradman it is the basis of his legend, because without them he would not have averaged near 100.
You're absolutely right, without that one series against India, Bradman comes WAY back to the field. His statistics would read:

47 Tests - 6,281 runs, average 95.16.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
You're absolutely right, without that one series against India, Bradman comes WAY back to the field. His statistics would read:

47 Tests - 6,281 runs, average 95.16.
Actually was refering to both series againts the minnows, India and South Africa where he averaged 176 and 250 ( off the top of my head.). He averaged 89 vs England and 74 vs the Weat Indies the only two decent fast bowling attacks that he played againts.
 

watson

Banned
In terms of batting average Viv Richards is closer to Chris Martin than he is to Bradman.
There is no way known, even in a pink fit that Bradman is twice as good with the bat as Viv Richards.

We can't go by mere batting averages alone because stripped of their context they become very misleading.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
In terms of batting average Viv Richards is closer to Chris Martin than he is to Bradman.
And if you saw Sir IVA Richards bat and knew the conditions he played under and the attacks he faced you would know how rediculous it is to say that Bradman is twice the batsman that Viv is.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Actually was refering to both series againts the minnows, India and South Africa where he averaged 176 and 250 ( off the top of my head.). He averaged 89 vs England and 74 vs the Weat Indies the only two decent fast bowling attacks that he played againts.
Ha ha ok, I'll even play along with this. Take both those series away - for the principal reason that it suits you - and Bradman's Test record is:

42 Tests - 5,475 runs, average 88.30.

Incidentally, how does every other batsman in Test history shape up if you just happen to arbitrarily remove their best 20% of matches?
 

the big bambino

International Captain
nope, Pakistan's batting avg overall in the 90s was ~31 .. hardly anything to sneeze at ..

new zealand's batting avg overall in the 90s was ~30

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo


all of WI, India and NZ had batting averages of around 25 overall from 28-39 .....

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

stats don't contradict what I say at all ....

the weakest side of the 90s, zimbabwe , had a slightly better avg than all of NZ,Ind & WI from 28-39 ......

WI still had chanderpaul, richardson, gayle etc ... though their batting did weaken considerably ....still what great depth did their batting in late 20s and 30s have ?

I'm not saying all modern attacks are better than the Eng one in 27-39 ...just that the Aus/Pak/WI/SA ones were .....
And this is an example of what I mean. This poster set the parameters by saying that Eng benefitted playing weak sides. I then countered by stating the averages of some of the 90s weaker sides against the better attacks of the era. In short countering within the parameters set by this poster.

Then he shifts the goal posts by quoting the overall batting averages of these weaker 90s sides. Well of course they'll improve. Because they benefit by playing against each other! In other words giving them the benefit he highlights to discount the efforts of the English attack of 27-39.

That seems to be the MO of the DGB revisionists. Cherry pick the stats and then play both sides of the street.

Either way he is wrong. The 27-39 English attack played a far greater proportion of their matches v their strongest opponent than any side of the modern era. Just as notable is that the weaker sides of the 27-39 era recorded their averages by almost exclusively playing Aus and Eng. In short they never got the advantage of improving their averages by playing each other as the moderns do.
 
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the big bambino

International Captain
Complete trash. I've already proven that if Bradman was replaced by a batsman who average 50, the bowlers averages will drop down by 0.9 runs . But that doesn't make Voce's average (27.88) even close to that of Marshall's, Hadlee's, Garner's or McGrath's (sub 22).

You may run circles showing a particular bowler averaged x amount more because of Bradman. But to balance out there should always be bowlers who benefited from Bradman's presence. Finally it has to come down to 1.8% of innings at extra average of 50 argument.
You only proved your ignorance. No bowler benefitted bowling to Bradman. Here are the facts. He increased the overall Eng bowling averages by almost 6. The South Africans by 12. The WI by 4. Not the 0.9 you erroneously state.

The figure you misquote and misunderstand (it is actually 1.2 or abouts) is the impact he had on the DECADAL BATTING AVERAGE: NOT INDIVIDUAL BOWLING AVERAGES. I have put your error up in capitals and in bold not to humiliate but to assist you to a better understanding.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
The only drivel is that you honestly belive that Allen and Voce were as good as Lindwall, Miller, Trueman, Davidson, Snow, Imran, Mahmood, Waqar, Wasim, Hadlee, Hall, Roberts, Holding, Croft, Garner, Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Donald Steyn, Pollock ect. because you are the only peron who does.
And this doesn't even factor in the ONLY teams that Bradman averaged over a hundred againts, India and South Africa who were minnows of the order of Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, there is a reason that no one rates Moyo higher than Viv even with his great year as it was primarily scored againts very weak attacks and minnows. When Weekes and Walcott plundered India it is used againts them (and they had Lindwall, Miller and Trueman to contend with otherwise), for Bradman it is the basis of his legend, because without them he would not have averaged near 100. Some use it againts Viv that he never faced an attack quite like his own, but Bradman never faced his own bowlers either who were the four best bowlers of his era in O'reilly, Grimmett, Lindwall and Miller.
I would give you Larwood who was only entering his true prime years when he was forced out of the game for practicing a form of bowling that was part of the game until the bouncer rule in the '90's (minus the field placings of course) and he had it pretty hard with the unhelpful pitches and the existing LBW rules as noted in his Wisden Obituary
"Around 5ft 8ins, but strongly-built with wide shoulders and long arms, he had a smooth, rhythmic approach and a high arm action. His speed was truly exceptional, and because of his lack of height, his bouncer tended to skid, veering into the ribs rather than wastefully over the head. The schoolboy Ray Lindwall drew upon this action after watching through the pickets at the SCG in 1932-33. In more recent times, the Pakistan express bowler Waqar Younis has had much of Larwood's movement about his run-up and delivery. Larwood's stock ball snapped in from the off, and in days when leg-before dismissals could be granted only from balls that pitched between wicket and wicket, he was denied many a dismissal that would have been given to succeeding generations of bowlers"
Do you understand how difficult is is for a right hand fast bowler to consistently get LBW decisions if they have to pitch in line with the stumps, which is why the Leg spinners and LH othrodox spinners were more effective than the fast bowlers and why combined with the pitches Australia had a derth of fast bolwers until the end of WW2.

How can anyone belive that a combination of all of these factors would not have contributed to an inflated average is lunacy, no one is suggesting that it would be cut in half, but it must have contributed, why is it so hard to see or admit that.
Protected by two great openers, strong batting behind him, for the most part relatively weak attacks except for a couple of series, flat pitches, favorable rules which were changed because of him and being able to gourge on some really weak teams didn't hurt either. He averaged 74 vs Martindale and Constantine, yet is suggested he would have averaged 100 vs the W.I in 83/84 can't buy it.
Once again not saying that his average would have beeen cut in half but to say if he played in a different era againts better bowlers and teams that his average would have stayed the same is what is drivel.
One of the more stupid opening sentences I've ever seen. So we mark DGB down bcos he hasn't played a cherry picked attack of XI across 50 years and from all countries. Well neither has anyone else so don't single out DGB to make a fallacious point with a fallacious argument. Bradman faced every great English bowler from 1920- to the debut of Snow in fc or test cricket with the exception Tyson, Trueman, Statham, Lock, Appleyard and Barnes. Maybe one of 2 others. Eng have been traditionally strong in all that time. He also faced Lindwall, Miller and Johnston.

Its also time for you to pay attention. I have already compared the 30s bowlers with Eng's fine 50s pace attack. There is no difference btwn the 2 when adjusted for DGB's influence and the % of games played against minnows.

You have not been able to refute that.

I will show the same attack is as good and in crucial instances better than the Pak attack of 88-2000. And the SA attack of 93-2004. EDIT: Also the English attack of 98-2009. Even without the deduction of DGB's runs.

You will be unable to refute that. I'll then deduct his runs to show a comparison with the Australians of around the same time (I've yet to set the time frame but will probably mirror the Pakistani period). It will show little statistical difference btwn that group and the Eng attack of 27-39.

You will not be able to refute that.

I will then show an adjustment in proportion against strong opponents to show that the modern era benefitted bowling to minnows NOT the 27-39 English.

You will not be able to refute that.

I will then wait for some idiot to scream in capitals "HEY BAMBI; WHAT ABOUT MARSHALL" I have my bets on who that will be and you are amongst the favourites.

The rest of your post is just turgid regurgitation. If I recall its something abt the difficulty of bowling in the 30s. Is that right? Well then they must hve been pretty good to bowl with those handicaps eh? Way to shoot yourself in the foot. :thumbsup:
 
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kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
You only proved your ignorance. No bowler benefitted bowling to Bradman. Here are the facts. He increased the overall Eng bowling averages by almost 6. The South Africans by 12. The WI by 4. Not the 0.9 you erroneously state.

The figure you misquote and misunderstand (it is actually 1.2 or abouts) is the impact he had on the DECADAL BATTING AVERAGE: NOT INDIVIDUAL BOWLING AVERAGES. I have put your error up in capitals and in bold not to humiliate but to assist you to a better understanding.
Can you please stop insulting everyone you disagree with. First it was drivel now its someone's ignorance.

You also seem to forget that they were two good batting teams, Australia and England, so when the Brtish bowlers were not bowling againts Australia it was N.Z, S.A., India or W.I so yes the averages would be lower againts them. The W.I numbers would be less average wise because they only played againts two teams and it was Australia and England so no minnows to throw off the curve.

You still haven't answered any of my questions from my previous post.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Ha ha ok, I'll even play along with this. Take both those series away - for the principal reason that it suits you - and Bradman's Test record is:

42 Tests - 5,475 runs, average 88.30.

Incidentally, how does every other batsman in Test history shape up if you just happen to arbitrarily remove their best 20% of matches?
Kyear is wrong on almost every count. His ave against SA was 206. The impact on the SA averages was amazing. Against the other Aussie bats they averaged 27 a wicket. Almost reducing the great Aussie batting to moderate std. Bell, the opening bowler, had one of the best performances of a fast bowler in Oz. Quinn was good support. Supposed minnow SA beat supposed giant Eng twice in 5 series btwn 27-39. One was drawn.

As an aside I never seen a more fallacious argument on a cricket site than those who try to revise DGB's career. I know the belief is non factual and the argument advancing it lacks any evidence. Therefore I have to wonder at the motivation of it all. Since it isn't rational I can only assume that it is something emotional and perhaps worse. I've seen examples on this site. It ranges from trolling to a little get squaring. By that I mean some people want to get square bcos of the prominent role Aussie umpires played in the legitimate no balling of Murali under the rules as they stood at the time and were changed to accomodate him. Others seem motivated by a generational or nationalistic jingoism.Others by something even worse maybe. But that is just an opinion.

I said I'll rate the 27-39 Eng against 4 attacks. The criteria will be ave v Australia. No of top ten bowlers with an ave less than 30 v Aus. Then the same criteria against all others. I can't think of other ways to rate bowlers. Maybe econ and SR. But one of those is usually implied in the bowling ave anyway
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Can you please stop insulting everyone you disagree with. First it was drivel now its someone's ignorance.

You also seem to forget that they were two good batting teams, Australia and England, so when the Brtish bowlers were not bowling againts Australia it was N.Z, S.A., India or W.I so yes the averages would be lower againts them. The W.I numbers would be less average wise because they only played againts two teams and it was Australia and England so no minnows to throw off the curve.

You still haven't answered any of my questions from my previous post.
You are being tedious and selective in your call for good manners. I believe I have shown forebearance.

For the umpteenth time it is the modern attacks who benefitted playing against minnows not the DGB era attack.

You don't ask questions. You make baseless pronouncements. Which I have answered and will again. Like the one in my second para above.
 
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honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
You guys do understand how cricket works right? If a batsman scores runs against a bowler, it goes for the batsman AND against the bowler.. If a batsman plays well, of course a bowlers' figures are gonna look bad in that match/series. Now if you are going to use that to conclude that the bowler was average and the batsman cashed in, well..... 8-)
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
You are being tedious and selective in your call for good manners. I believe I have shown forebearance.

For the umpteenth time it is the modern attacks who benefitted playing against minnows not the DGB era attack.

You don't ask questions. You make baseless pronouncements. Which I have answered and will again. Like the one in my second para above.
:huh:
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
I think it is reasonable to say that Bradman's average would have dropped a little if he had played bowlers of the quality of Wasim, Waqar, McGrath, Pollock. Steyn, Donald and co under modern day lbw rules and fielding/umpiring standards. He would still be the best batsman ever but wouldn't average 99 as he did...maybe 65 or 70. On an unrelated note, I have always had a problem with the peers argument. Steyn is by far the best bowler today, overall record being considered. That doesn't automatically make him better than Waqar or Ambrose or Donald just because these guys were never comfortably ahead of their peers like Steyn is.
Very well said.

People tends to get sour when somebody says Batsman A is better than B because A averages 55 and B averages 50, citing average is not useful blah, blah. But they agree whole heartedly that Bradman is twice better than a player who average 50. Now suddenely average becomes very important. ****ing double standards.
 

akilana

International 12th Man
WI attack of the 80s were lucky that they never had to bowl at Don. He would have embarassed them and spoiled their averages. If they played reasonable number of tests agaist him, they would have ended up with an average in the 30s.
 

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