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In terms of pure bowling skill, is Bumrah the greatest you have seen?

OverratedSanity

OverratedSanity

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ankitj said:
Did he average ~20 against the top 1-2 teams of the day
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Close enough. At the point where he had 210 wickets @19.8, he averaged 22-23 vs Australia, and 16 vs WI (although he played WI at a time when they had already declined a lot and their batting was terrible)
 
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peterhrt

First Class Debutant
kyear2 said:
Greatest bowler of all time and first name on the sheet is ludicrous.

I recall @peterhrt the other day talking about when there was once a concerted effort to push Sachin and Warne as the greatest batsman and bowler of all time.

This is a tad bit more blatant, but also understandable.
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The leading cricket writers and commentators of the past used to double up as historians. They lived in the past, as did many of their readers and listeners who were mostly old.

The opposite is true now. The media sells subscriptions and advertising by talking up what is in front of us. No longer will they tell us that the best cricketers played long ago. How many times have we heard that Root is England's greatest-ever batsman, and Anderson the country's best bowler? Now Bumrah is the greatest of them all. Sign up and watch him at Lord's this week.

As noted above, this probably started with Warne and Tendulkar. One recalls an article about these two in The Guardian more than twenty years ago. Paraphrasing the message: "No they are not Trumper, or Barnes, or Bradman. They are here and now. And they are better."
 
Johan

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
peterhrt said:
The opposite is true now. The media sells subscriptions and advertising by talking up what is in front of us. No longer will they tell us that the best cricketers played long ago. How many times have we heard that Root is England's greatest-ever batsman, and Anderson the country's best bowler? Now Bumrah is the greatest of them all. Sign up and watch him at Lord's this week.

As noted above, this probably started with Warne and Tendulkar. One recalls an article about these two in The Guardian more than twenty years ago. Paraphrasing the message: "No they are not Trumper, or Barnes, or Bradman. They are here and now. And they are better."
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I'd argue personally that it really starts with IVA Richards and DK Lillee, never quite understood why exactly Lillee was called the first modern fast bowler when pacers did what he did many years before him and arguably did it better than him. After some time, I hit the natural realisation that it because Lillee bowled with colour television and was the first great bowler from the colour television era that led to inherent bias against those who came before and those who came after. From Richards and Lillee to Tendulkar and Warne and to what I presume will be Smith and Bumrah will just follow the trend of declaring the modern disputed top two the greatest of them all for the media.

Always better if they happen to have an epic story or a larger than life personality, of course.
 
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peterhrt

First Class Debutant
Johan said:
I'd argue personally that it really starts with IVA Richards and DK Lillee, never quite understood why exactly Lillee was called the first modern fast bowler when pacers did what he did many years before him and arguably did it better than him. After some time, I hit the natural realisation that it because Lillee bowled with colour television and was the first great bowler from the colour television era that led to inherent bias against those who came before and those who came after. From Richards and Lillee to Tendulkar and Warne and to what I presume will be Smith and Bumrah will just follow the trend of declaring the modern disputed top two the greatest of them all for the media.

Always better if they happen to have an epic story or a larger than life personality, of course.
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There were a few who claimed Viv Richards and Lillee were the best ever. Botham was one. However the old writers were still around and preferred looking back. Richards and Lillee were 5th and 6th in the Wisden 20th century vote, behind Bradman, Sobers, Hobbs and Warne. John Woodcock had Grace as number one cricketer in 1997 and Christopher Martin-Jenkins placed him second as late as 2009.

English commentators have never rated Steve Smith particularly highly.
 
subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Johan said:
I'd argue personally that it really starts with IVA Richards and DK Lillee, never quite understood why exactly Lillee was called the first modern fast bowler when pacers did what he did many years before him and arguably did it better than him. After some time, I hit the natural realisation that it because Lillee bowled with colour television and was the first great bowler from the colour television era that led to inherent bias against those who came before and those who came after. From Richards and Lillee to Tendulkar and Warne and to what I presume will be Smith and Bumrah will just follow the trend of declaring the modern disputed top two the greatest of them all for the media.

Always better if they happen to have an epic story or a larger than life personality, of course.
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Well I am sure at their peaks everyone of these guys was threatening to be the best ever though and looked exceptional. Yes it's part hype but it's also appreciation.

Tendulkar wasn't a large personality either. He just looked that special.
 
centurymaker

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
subshakerz said:
Your criterias are as consistent as your rankings, as in they seem to be vibe dependent.

And I have zero problems with folks ranking McGrath over Sachin. Most of the forum does. I am in regular debate mode, challenging assumptions.
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Agree 100%. All his opinions and rankings change every couple of months. He has his strong English bias yet he calls out others often.
 
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centurymaker

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
ma1978 said:
For the record, I have no problem rating Mcgrath over Sachin - top three bowler of all time vs top three batsman of all time. Careers generally overlapped. Impeccable in every respect.

I have no view of the matter since I think comparison between bats and bowlers is stupid, but if one were to compare, they are the most comparable in their respective fields.
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IMO top end ATG bowlers are always better than ATG batsmen so I would always take a McGrath over a Tendulkar if I could pick just one of them.
 
centurymaker

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
Johan said:
if Smith ends with 12,000 with 56+, he has a good, very good case for BAH
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He has a good case to be in the top 4 batters IF he does that (including good performance in SA & Ind in 2026/27). To get to 12/12.5 K, he needs about 25 tests. Basically play till 2027 Ashes. That would be a good time to finish up.
 
centurymaker

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
subshakerz said:
Simple question, who is a greater threat right now to Mcgraths and Sachins standings respectively, Bumrah or Steve Smith?
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Bumrah, because he is not just a threat to McGrath but arguably even Marshall himself, IF Bumrah maintains his numbers for 25 more tests! Now that we are hyping him up, watch him fail at Lord's. Should never hype someone too much, it tends to end badly for the player, seen it happen too many times. Is subs deliberately doing this so that Bumrah fails?:-O
 
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